Winter Driving - same ole' question. (Denver, Evergreen: sales, condo, how much)

[Brill]

Been driving my FWD ford focus up to the ski resorts with all season tires without any issue for several years now. Handles the snow just fine. I carry chains just in case, but have never had the need. If it's bad enough where i need chains, probably best to stay home.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by mic111

I don't think it is a good idea to rely on just FWD in the mountains.

I would disagree. I live in Summit County and have a FWD sedan (Honda Civic) with snow tires. Never missed a powder day in over 5 years (including a 3-foot day at Vail); my wife drove it to and from Leadville (from Silverthorne) for two winters without any problems. Many of our friends and neighbors (full-time residents here) drive FWD sedans.

[80skeys]

Originally Posted by mic111

I agree. Can't even get up my own driveway without AWD sometimes

Exactly true! A lot of people don't realize something as simple as driving up a sloped driveway can be impossible without four-wheel drive.

Originally Posted by attentionspanltd

If you do a lot of driving on steep hills, or happen to get caught in heavily snowy/icy conditions on I-70, AWD or 4WD would be best (but even then, snow tires on a FWD should be fine).

Or carry chains

Originally Posted by Brill

Been driving my FWD ford focus up to the ski resorts with all season tires without any issue for several years now. Handles the snow just fine.

That's a very light car with a short wheel base. FWD becomes more problematic the heavier the vehicle and the longer the wheel base. I do not recommend FWD for winter mountain driving.

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I live in Summit County and have a FWD sedan (Honda Civic) with snow tires. Never missed a powder day in over 5 years

Again, same thing. You've got an extremely small, light car with a short wheel base. If you get stuck, you could probably just lift the car out yourself, right? LOL You can't generalize on your experience to say that FWD is sufficient for all vehicles because it's not.

[KaaBoom]

Originally Posted by snofarmer

I'd love to be able to run studded tires in the winter.
There great on packed snow and
if you go into the ditch.

I can't use a"snow" tire for work, they are to soft and they wear out to quickly carrying a load.

Most U.S. states and Canadian provinces permit studded tires during the winter months, but some (including Michigan, Minnesota and Wisconsin) severely restrict their use. A few (including Illinois) outlaw studded tires completely.

"But are studded tires safer on ice than studless? In Scandinavian tests, the answer is often yes. "Year after year tire tests show that studded tires provide better traction than studless winter tires. This test is no exception,"

Am I missing something, or does that appear to be in contradiction to whats shown in your graphic?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by 80skeys

I do not recommend FWD for winter mountain driving. You can't generalize on your experience to say that FWD is sufficient for all vehicles because it's not.

I never said FWD is sufficient for all vehicles. I rebutted the generalization made by a poster that FWD is not recommended for winter driving by giving my specific example of living and getting around in the mountains fine with FWD. I could also give examples of some of our friends and neighbors who drive large vehicles/SUVs/minivans without AWD/4WD.

Are there situations where AWD/4WD is necessary for mountain driving? Absolutely (e.g. steep/unmaintained roads/driveways). I only disagree with the seemingly automatic generalization that one cannot survive without AWD/4WD in the mountains.

[snofarmer]

I'm not saying a stud-less snow tires are crap or that you even need a snow tire to begin with.
I would like to run studded tires on my plow trucks. You can studs on all season tires also, many have the provisions for them.

I think it has more to do with your driving experience, style and your vehicle.
I worked the night shift at CBMR, you know that time of night when they stop plowing the roads until morning and in 4 years I never missed a shift because of the road conditions or a powder day.
I used a all season tire and a 4wd.

Did you see where MT allows studds year around?

Then the road damage argument.
In my area the roads wear out from the freeze thaw cycles, frost heaves in the spring and from heavy trucks long before a little scratching from studded tires at intersections.

Originally Posted by KaaBoom

Am I missing something, or does that appear to be in contradiction to whats shown in your graphic?

[wanneroo]

Originally Posted by mic111

I agree. Can't even get up my own driveway without AWD sometimes but we can just get out and walk to the front door. If you were staying in the city I'd say FWD is fine with caution and the ability to stay home when it is bad out and wait for the plows. I don't think it is a good idea to rely on just FWD in the mountains. If you do try it make sure you have a fully stocked emergency supply kit. LED emergency lights so someone can find you if you've drifted off the road, chemical hand warmers that they sell for hunters, blankets, food, water etc.

If it were me I'd be trading in that car for an AWD. Give yourself the best chance possible of safely making the trips.

Certainly if one was to choose, AWD over FWD is preferable, but not all AWD systems are the same.

In all my experience in vehicle dynamics and testing as a hired subject matter expert(in fact the Bridgestone Winter Driving School did a test a season or 2 ago for the State Patrol), what matters more is not what wheel is driving what, but rather the amount of grip available by the tires and the ability of the suspension to work properly with the tire keeping it in contact with the road.

Yes on inclines at low speed, situations like that having AWD will help, sure, but doing regular driving on plowed roads the advantage is less. In fact most people out there do not realize that when they have a car with "AWD", 99.9% of the time, it's running as a FWD car and only kicks power back to the rear axle very occasionally. As I said, not every system is the same, some systems are more active than others.

The point is though, people overestimate the ability of AWD and underestimate the importance of tire grip.

[wanneroo]

Originally Posted by snofarmer

I'd love to be able to run studded tires in the winter.
There great on packed snow and
if you go into the ditch.

"But are studded tires safer on ice than studless? In Scandinavian tests, the answer is often yes. "Year after year tire tests show that studded tires provide better traction than studless winter tires. This test is no exception," This test is no exception," says Sweden's Vi Bilagare magazine, one of the most respected Scandinavian winter-tire test sources. "It is entirely apparent that on our most dangerous winter road conditions, the difference in traction and safety between the two tire alternatives is considerable...That does not mean that Vi Bilagare advises against Nordic studless tires. They are a good and safe alternati"
Studded Snow Tires - Snow Tires Reviews


And some of those highly recommended snow tires have provisions for studs.

On solid ice, studded tires might be able to equal or exceed grip of a good winter tire without studs, but who is driving on solid ice for mile after mile?

We have to remember what the OP asked for which is driving on I-70 and Highway 9 to Summit County and back to Denver.

I've done close to 2000 round trips doing the same route and on very few occasions did I ever have to drive on solid sheet ice. Snow, yes. Snowpacked, yes. Slush, yes. Patches of ice, yes. In most regular driving on that road, having a studless tire will work better.

Studs weaken the tread block and compromise the design when it comes to wicking away moisture and reaching out and grabbing the road with the siping.

[wanneroo]

Originally Posted by Brill

Been driving my FWD ford focus up to the ski resorts with all season tires without any issue for several years now. Handles the snow just fine. I carry chains just in case, but have never had the need. If it's bad enough where i need chains, probably best to stay home.

These days CDOT shuts I-70 down if it gets that bad.

The company I worked for had a fleet of 250 vehicles, mostly rear wheel drive. 24 hours a day in winter in Summit, Vail and Aspen, these vehicles go up steep driveways, side streets, up the sides of mountains and in almost all cases with no problems. In 7 winter seasons, I only ever put chains on one time to get out of a drive way in Edwards, CO that had a lip on the edge that was too icy and steep and it just so happened it was one of the few vans in the fleet that did not have Bridgestone or Nokian winter tires on it.

Again, it comes down to grip and not so much about what wheel drives what.

[wanneroo]

Originally Posted by 80skeys

Exactly true! A lot of people don't realize something as simple as driving up a sloped driveway can be impossible without four-wheel drive.

Or carry chains

That's a very light car with a short wheel base. FWD becomes more problematic the heavier the vehicle and the longer the wheel base. I do not recommend FWD for winter mountain driving.

Again, same thing. You've got an extremely small, light car with a short wheel base. If you get stuck, you could probably just lift the car out yourself, right? LOL You can't generalize on your experience to say that FWD is sufficient for all vehicles because it's not.

I found as someone in teaching people how to get up sloped snowy driveways, that it comes down to proper technique and grip, rather than 4x4 or AWD. Certainly those gizmos help but it's not the whole package.

FWD for most driving on snowy roads(with proper tires) is fine for most people. Do I and did I prefer to own a AWD vehicle? Certainly, especially with some of the places I've had to get into with my personal vehicle that were snowy and off paved roads. But if you are driving on regular roads all the time, it's not 100% essential.

If the OP feels he wants an extra edge with AWD and to trade in their car for a Subaru or Audi, go for it. But I would not rush out in a wild eyed frenzied panic to do so or put myself into financial hardship to do so, rather I'd get great tires first.