[missionhill]

Originally Posted by JayCT

I am pretty sure that Hartford is the second largest employment center in New England with more than 112,000 jobs there. In recent years, the major insurance companies (Travelers, Hartford and Aetna) have brought workers back to the city's campuses. A few major companies, most recently Untied Bank, have moved downtown. Hundreds of new apartments have been built and occupied with no real end in sight. How does that make for a failed city?

Well, Geoff is saying that high poverty and poor education outcomes among residents earns the "failed" label. It certainly is a great political failure that in an affluent metropolitan area like greater Hartford the central city remains deeply segregated and poor with many suburban areas blissfully unconcerned by the problem. The Scheff-O'Neill ruling and remedy is all about this problem. But you're absolutely right that with the city being a big employment center and key to the whole metro area's prosperity the term "failed" doesn't really fit.

I don't understand this loving of Providence that so many people have. Downtown's largest office building sits empty and decaying for years. An anchor at the very heavily subsidized shopping mall has closed and because the owners could not find a replacement tenant, they are converting the store space to parking. Efforts to bring the Pawtucket Red Sox to the city failed. Maybe because I remember the city in its dark days in the 70's but I still get the creeps in many parts of the city and have little or no desire to visit there.

If you changed your mind and did visit you would find how pleasant and attractive Providence can be.

[JayCT]

Originally Posted by missionhill

If you changed your mind and did visit you would find how pleasant and attractive Providence can be.

I have visited it a number of times recently. Just don't see it being any better or different than Hartford or New Haven. Jay

[GeoffD]

Originally Posted by missionhill

Well, Geoff is saying that high poverty and poor education outcomes among residents earns the "failed" label.

Yep. Basically, the middle class can't live there because the school system is a war zone. In Providence, if you are very high income, you can live near Brown and send your kids to private schools. That is beyond the reach of the middle class. This has nothing to do with office towers, jobs, and workers who flee to the suburbs at 5pm. It's the people who actually live in the city.

I'm not picking on Hartford or Connecticut. This is a problem everywhere in the United States. Any US city with a 20%+ poverty rate has lousy schools. If you're middle class, you do anything possible to avoid sending your children to those schools. If you don't have children, you can cherry pick a nice neighborhood and live in the city. The only issue is that you're taking pretty big risk of a property value collapse if you opt to buy. New York City is an exception. I'm trying to think of anywhere else in the country that has neighborhoods in a large city that have good school systems. Some have competitive exam schools that are good. Boston Latin, for example.

[GeoffD]

Originally Posted by JayCT

I have visited it a number of times recently. Just don't see it being any better or different than Hartford or New Haven. Jay

There's more gentrification around Brown than around Yale. Providence did a pretty good job with their downtown urban renewal. Providence Place and the Civic Center *cough* Dunkin Donuts Center *cough* draw people in where Hartford mostly doesn't.

It also helps that Providence has Amtrak and commuter rail to Boston. With the high housing costs in Boston, there are a lot of people using Providence as their urban bedroom town. It's not much of a walk from Brown/College Hill down to the train station.

Other than parts of Federal Hill, the rest of the city is a dump.

[MMS02760]

Originally Posted by GeoffD

Other than parts of Federal Hill, the rest of the city is a dump.

You don't know Providence all that well. The West Broadway area has now also become a hip neighborhood to live. New housing is being built along with conversions in the downtown core. Many of the old mills just to the west of downtown along route 10 have been converted to residential lofts with some office space mixed in. The neighborhoods of Mt Pleasant and Elmhust (over between PC and RIC) are still nice middle class enclaves.

It is a misconception that the area around Brown is the only nice place to live in the city.

[Mike 75]

Originally Posted by GeoffD

There's more gentrification around Brown than around Yale. Providence did a pretty good job with their downtown urban renewal. Providence Place and the Civic Center *cough* Dunkin Donuts Center *cough* draw people in where Hartford mostly doesn't.

It also helps that Providence has Amtrak and commuter rail to Boston. With the high housing costs in Boston, there are a lot of people using Providence as their urban bedroom town. It's not much of a walk from Brown/College Hill down to the train station.

Other than parts of Federal Hill, the rest of the city is a dump.

There's story that back in the 60's, when urban renewal was the hot thing, Providence wanted to tear down all the historic homes on the lower part of College Hill by Benefit Street. But the city lacked the funds to do so, so they left it all there. Lo and behold, 25 years later, people want historic homes and so begins the Providence renaissance.

[JayCT]

Originally Posted by Mike 75

There's story that back in the 60's, when urban renewal was the hot thing, Providence wanted to tear down all the historic homes on the lower part of College Hill by Benefit Street. But the city lacked the funds to do so, so they left it all there. Lo and behold, 25 years later, people want historic homes and so begins the Providence renaissance.

This is true but there were also a lot of locals who wanted the homes restored rather than demolished. Jay