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All true. Although what others do with the flag which is disrespectful has no bearing on those who do it for historically related reasons. I understand the use of the flag on State property at a memorial if the State intends to honor their war dead. I see monuments from both sides at Gettsyburg erected in the 1880s by veterans to commemorate their dead and suffering....
If an idiot, whether organized like the KKK or an unstable individual uses the flag, then it has no bearing on others. There are numerous parallels to this in other activities which would affect us if ill meaning is attached to historical artifacts in present use.
I do object to Miss. incorporating the flag within their State Flag.[But respect that to be a State issue to resolve] I do not object to its use in war memorials as was the case in SC.[But it is a State specific issue] Because the Southern fighting man fought well and hard and did earn the respect of his Northern opponents. As I wrote early far more real men then we are today....
I have never thought it was appropriate to have the battle flag on State Capitals, and I don't approve of it being flown frivolously and out of an historical context.
I feel uncomfortable, though, with people who insist that it only has one meaning, a meaning that THEY define. And I feel the the same about those who define everyone who has it, whether as a flag or an emblem, as having the same motives and feelings. No one can see inside someone's head. As John Coski says in "The Confederate Flag: America's Most Embattled Emblem", just because you think it is racist doesn't mean that everyone use has it is racist. If someone does something overtly racist to you, sure, call them a racist. But just because they have a "rebel flag" belt buckle or sticker? This no more means they are a "racist" than everyone who wears a Malcolm X "By Any Means Necessary" t-shirt is advocating murder and violence.
It is wrong for people to use it in a hurtful way. but it's wrong to use anything in a hurtful way, and even if all flags vanish, it won't change anything. People can demonstrate racism in a thousand different ways, none of which need involve a flag.
But the biggest problem I have with this whole issue is that even if you eradicate all the flags, destroy all the monuments, and move all the graves, history still happened. For better or for worse, the Civil War was among the greatest defining events in our nation's history. These flags and monuments are a part of that history, and they serve to remind everyone of that era, both the good and the bad. There will always be different interpretations. But they can serve as the basis for dialog and understanding. To remove all references to that period does everyone a disservice.
After the Civil war, Confederate and Federal veterans addressed each other as "brother". During the occupation of the South, Federal soldiers were irritated when they saw Southern civilians treat Confederate veterans with disregard. Many joint reunions were held. One of the largest was held at Pea Ridge, Ark. in 1889. A monument was unveiled which included a pair of clasping hands and the words “A REUNITED SOLDIERY.” When General William Sherman died, his Confederate opponent Joe Johnston served as a pall-bearer. Looking at the past through lens tinted by the 21st century has made people forget things like that.
There is an outcry for "Silent Sam", the Confederate memorial on UNC-CH to be removed. This would be a tragedy. Instead, erect monuments for Unionists among the Chapel Hill alumni, and for Blacks who labored for the Confederacy and served with Federals. Have them alongside each other on the campus. We can tear down statues, but we can't erase the past and replace it with how we "think" it should have been. To try to do so is folly.
That's 'lost cause' & how folks were conned into fighting.
Ralph Waldo Emerson said, "If you put a chain around the neck of a slave, the other end fastens itself around your own."
Let's face it, slavery was present at the beginning of our Country, condoned by our Constitution & it diminished us as a Country & as a People. It's part of our heritage but it's nothing to be proud of.
It was a global business that no country has been proud of, that is why many have worked hard to disguise it and only apply footnotes to it in their history. America doesn't hide ---
I have never thought it was appropriate to have the battle flag on State Capitals, and I don't approve of it being flown frivolously and out of an historical context.
I feel uncomfortable, though, with people who insist that it only has one meaning, a meaning that THEY define. And I feel the the same about those who define everyone who has it, whether as a flag or an emblem, as having the same motives and feelings. No one can see inside someone's head. As John Coski says in "The Confederate Flag: America's Most Embattled Emblem", just because you think it is racist doesn't mean that everyone use has it is racist. If someone does something overtly racist to you, sure, call them a racist. But just because they have a "rebel flag" belt buckle or sticker? This no more means they are a "racist" than everyone who wears a Malcolm X "By Any Means Necessary" t-shirt is advocating murder and violence.
It is wrong for people to use it in a hurtful way. but it's wrong to use anything in a hurtful way, and even if all flags vanish, it won't change anything. People can demonstrate racism in a thousand different ways, none of which need involve a flag.
But the biggest problem I have with this whole issue is that even if you eradicate all the flags, destroy all the monuments, and move all the graves, history still happened. For better or for worse, the Civil War was among the greatest defining events in our nation's history. These flags and monuments are a part of that history, and they serve to remind everyone of that era, both the good and the bad. There will always be different interpretations. But they can serve as the basis for dialog and understanding. To remove all references to that period does everyone a disservice.
After the Civil war, Confederate and Federal veterans addressed each other as "brother". During the occupation of the South, Federal soldiers were irritated when they saw Southern civilians treat Confederate veterans with disregard. Many joint reunions were held. One of the largest was held at Pea Ridge, Ark. in 1889. A monument was unveiled which included a pair of clasping hands and the words “A REUNITED SOLDIERY.” When General William Sherman died, his Confederate opponent Joe Johnston served as a pall-bearer. Looking at the past through lens tinted by the 21st century has made people forget things like that.
There is an outcry for "Silent Sam", the Confederate memorial on UNC-CH to be removed. This would be a tragedy. Instead, erect monuments for Unionists among the Chapel Hill alumni, and for Blacks who labored for the Confederacy and served with Federals. Have them alongside each other on the campus. We can tear down statues, but we can't erase the past and replace it with how we "think" it should have been. To try to do so is folly.
I woke today with this thought, we can remove all the historical symbols, monuments and artifacts in the world, but that won't change history or the heart of man. Only the individual can change their heart and let their conscience show what is right to them.
That's 'lost cause' & how folks were conned into fighting.
Ralph Waldo Emerson said, "If you put a chain around the neck of a slave, the other end fastens itself around your own."
Let's face it, slavery was present at the beginning of our Country, condoned by our Constitution & it diminished us as a Country & as a People. It's part of our heritage but it's nothing to be proud of.
Slavery didn't begin in the USA and doesn't end here so is not inherently ours. Progressive liberals and those they guide flocks of mindless sheep don't fathom that as they wear blinders or have tunnel vision. They view it as a purely RACIST American anomaly and attempt to thrust it into the public eye whenever the opportunity arises. Don't bother trying to point to other civilizations before ours or those currently who practice slavery, They will refute you if for doing so as you are being RACIST...you are changing the topic away from that of the tawdry history of RACIST white Americans. You will be vilified.
Anyway, until a few years ago, I did not have single item with a Confederate battle flag on it, out of "respect" for the "sensitivity" of others. But when I moved back to NC, I found hordes of Yankee transplants who view everything Southern with open contempt and ridicule. Southern food, Southern music, Southern accents, you name it. If you have any affinity with Southern culture, they call you a "dumb racist redneck". Listen to Lynyrd Skynyrd? You’re a “Dumb racist redneck”. Eat fatback and pork rinds? You’re a “dumb racist redneck”. Wear cowboy boots and a John Deere shirt? You’re a “dumb redneck”. And this has nothing to do with the Confederate flag. If you don't look like they do, sound like they do, and think like they do, you are a "stupid hick", a "racist", and a "troglodyte". Walk into Whole Foods with a straw cowboy hat, a beard, and a Vince Gill t-shirt and see what I mean. They openly disparage anything to do with rural and Southern.
I live in the North and you are so right about the Northern attitude that they are so superior to anyone in the South. Yet, that's where so many of them move to get away from big government with the high costs, rules and regulations we have here. Then they will vote the same way they voted here, what's wrong with these people? A lot of us that are stuck here would love to get away from bloated government and we would never vote to get it back!
Slavery didn't begin in the USA and doesn't end here so is not inherently ours. Progressive liberals and those they guide flocks of mindless sheep don't fathom that as they wear blinders or have tunnel vision. They view it as a purely RACIST American anomaly and attempt to thrust it into the public eye whenever the opportunity arises. Don't bother trying to point to other civilizations before ours or those currently who practice slavery, They will refute you if for doing so as you are being RACIST...you are changing the topic away from that of the tawdry history of RACIST white Americans. You will be vilified.
You realize of course that we think you guys are the blind, mindless sheep, right?
Slavery didn't begin in the USA and doesn't end here so is not inherently ours. Progressive liberals and those they guide flocks of mindless sheep don't fathom that as they wear blinders or have tunnel vision. They view it as a purely RACIST American anomaly and attempt to thrust it into the public eye whenever the opportunity arises. Don't bother trying to point to other civilizations before ours or those currently who practice slavery, They will refute you if for doing so as you are being RACIST...you are changing the topic away from that of the tawdry history of RACIST white Americans. You will be vilified.
Slavery and racism are by no means unique to America.
But I don't get the argument that "other people did it so why criticize me?"
Slavery and racism are by no means unique to America.
But I don't get the argument that "other people did it so why criticize me?"
Really, you don't get the fallacy of crucifying only one particular group of people for engaging in a practice that was accepted and practiced by the majority of civilizations for practically out entire history.
Slavery didn't begin in the USA and doesn't end here so is not inherently ours. Progressive liberals and those they guide flocks of mindless sheep don't fathom that as they wear blinders or have tunnel vision. They view it as a purely RACIST American anomaly and attempt to thrust it into the public eye whenever the opportunity arises. Don't bother trying to point to other civilizations before ours or those currently who practice slavery, They will refute you if for doing so as you are being RACIST...you are changing the topic away from that of the tawdry history of RACIST white Americans. You will be vilified.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57
Slavery and racism are by no means unique to America.
But I don't get the argument that "other people did it so why criticize me?"
Unless a person is raciest it isn't criticism. It is acknowledgement of the fact that slavery, yesterday and today is not indigenous to one race, but a business that was/is practiced world wide.
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