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If Turkey or someone in Turkey is buying oil from ISIS is Russia out of line to compromise its airspace? Why arent we following these oil convoys to see where they are being delivered?
"All along there’s always been the idea that Turkey was supporting ISIS in some way… Someone’s buying that oil that ISIS is selling, it’s going through somewhere, it looks to me like it’s probably going through Turkey, but the Turks haven't acknowledged that."
“Let’s be very clear: ISIS [ISIL] is not just a terrorist organization, it is a Sunni terrorist organization. It means it blocks and targets Shia, and that means it’s serving the interests of Turkey and Saudi Arabia even as it poses a threat to them,” Clark said.
The Turks will always choose to attack the Kurds, the Kurds are the number one enemy of Turkey, and they would throw the entirety of their economic and military power at the Kurds before ever allowing them to be a significant political force and eventually their own country. Turkey has had to grind their teeth over the US support of the Kurds in Iraq for the last two decades.
Putin is attacking the ISIS, it is on the news daily, western news; do you not read the news?
ISIS can only be totally defeated by a ground offensive, which the only people who could even attempt to do this is the Syrian government. The only way for the Syrian government to attack the ISIS is to first stop the rebels from attacking the. Have you even viewed a map of the conflict? ISIS strongholds are not really bordering Syrian regime held areas, the Syrian government has to first break through rebels lines to even get close to a ground offensive against the ISIS. Syria cannot launch a ground attack while still at battle with rebels.
Nothing stops anyone from unilateral sanctions, the entire world except for China and Russia could have enacted sanctions, but they did not... Even sanctions do not stop countries from violating sanctions (see Iran-Contra for example); and since when has sanctions ever really solved anything?
I see Crimea voting for independence, then voting to join Russia. You can state the vote was rigged all you want, but even Ukrainian news stated that over 90% of its military there decided to defect to Russia. If you actually ever visited the place and east Ukraine, you would know hardly anyone was a fan of being part of Ukraine, having the fairly elected president ousted in a coup was the straw that broke the camel's back. Russia did not really do anything different than what most countries have done in their history.
The Malaysian downing was an accident, plain and simple. They thought it was a Ukrainian war plane, as they have been shot down a few times and were operating in the area. The questions should be; why were airlines flying over a war zone in which aircraft were being shot down, and; why did Ukraine allow airlines to fly this path. Accidents happen though, even the US, with its high tech anti-air systems, accidentally shot down a civilian plane before, and Ukraine has shot down a Russian civilian plane also.
The US denied any involvement for years in Syrian until recently, when it disclosed that yes, in fact the CIA has been operating in Syria. I can pull up a post from over a year ago where I stated the CIA was operating there, all the while the US was denying having anyone on the ground. SO point is, yes, countries deny being in places, nothing unusual there.
DOA on the world stage? Governments love this guy, the defense hawks love this guy. Putin has made many people in the West rich, and provides a great talking point for politicians to deflect from domestic issues. Only Putin provides the best justification for multi-billion dollar weapon systems. Damn, I bet all these war hawks are wondering what to do when Putin is replaced, with fear that a new Russian leader quite will not make these billion dollar weapon systems needed, and not provide deflection from domestic issues.
Oh, I am sure you are on NATO's side, though this has nothing to do with NATO, no more than the US involvement in Haiti or Somalia had anything to do with NATO. NATO could kill a bus load of nuns and you would probably still be on their side.
NATO is a dangerous organization, it is an organization in search of a mission. Zero combat involvements during the Cold War, four since the Cold War was over.
1) Putin is attacking ISIS and every other rebel group. He has been bombing the rebels aligned with West more than he's been bombing ISIS. He's there to (a) protect his. Ally Assad and (b) boost his and Russia's reputation as a force to be reckoned with.
2) Putin seized Crimea illegally and by force, there's no going around this simple fact. There are multiple regions of the world where population is mixed and a large part of it would rather live in a neighboring country, this doesn't give that country the right to send their special forces to occupy that area. If Mexicans living in the Southwestern US decided to join Mexico, would it be OK for the Mexican government to send the troops in and then hold a "referendum" under their guns ?
3) Downing of the passenger jet was by criminal negligence and Russia is fighting tooth and nail to avoid admitting this simple fact. This is not much different from the US frigate shooting down an Iranian passenger plane, at least the US admitted that even though they later tried to put a spin on the story.
4) Without NATO we'd be in WW3 now. A multipolar world is the warring world. Learn history.
1) Putin is attacking ISIS and every other rebel group. He has been bombing the rebels aligned with West more than he's been bombing ISIS. He's there to (a) protect his. Ally Assad and (b) boost his and Russia's reputation as a force to be reckoned with.
The latest is that the government forces have been driving out ISIS from Homs and that ISIS in Palmyra is surrounded. Palmyra is the ancient city where ISIS has been destroying ancient monuments and sacking antiquities which Erodogan's family has been personally trafficking.
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Originally Posted by Ummagumma
2) Putin seized Crimea illegally and by force, there's no going around this simple fact. There are multiple regions of the world where population is mixed and a large part of it would rather live in a neighboring country, this doesn't give that country the right to send their special forces to occupy that area. If Mexicans living in the Southwestern US decided to join Mexico, would it be OK for the Mexican government to send the troops in and then hold a "referendum" under their guns ?
They voted to secede from the Ukraine. There was no seizure by force as Crimea hosts a major Russian naval base which accounts for much of the economy. Crimea was historically a part of Russia before the administrative transfer in 1954. Much of the east probably would secede also as they have mostly Russian heritage.
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Originally Posted by Ummagumma
3) Downing of the passenger jet was by criminal negligence and Russia is fighting tooth and nail to avoid admitting this simple fact. This is not much different from the US frigate shooting down an Iranian passenger plane, at least the US admitted that even though they later tried to put a spin on the story.
You're uninformed. Not surprising.
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Originally Posted by Ummagumma
4) Without NATO we'd be in WW3 now. A multipolar world is the warring world. Learn history.
Nonsense. There would be no Syrian rebels. There would be no war.
If Turkey or someone in Turkey is buying oil from ISIS is Russia out of line to compromise its airspace? Why arent we following these oil convoys to see where they are being delivered?
"All along there’s always been the idea that Turkey was supporting ISIS in some way… Someone’s buying that oil that ISIS is selling, it’s going through somewhere, it looks to me like it’s probably going through Turkey, but the Turks haven't acknowledged that."
“Let’s be very clear: ISIS [ISIL] is not just a terrorist organization, it is a Sunni terrorist organization. It means it blocks and targets Shia, and that means it’s serving the interests of Turkey and Saudi Arabia even as it poses a threat to them,” Clark said.
The latest is that the government forces have been driving out ISIS from Homs and that ISIS in Palmyra is surrounded. Palmyra is the ancient city where ISIS has been destroying ancient monuments and sacking antiquities which Erodogan's family has been personally trafficking.
Which doesn't make Putin into ISIS figther, he's been fighting for Assad, not against ISIS per se.
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Originally Posted by lchoro
They voted to secede from the Ukraine. There was no seizure by force as Crimea hosts a major Russian naval base which accounts for much of the economy. Crimea was historically a part of Russia before the administrative transfer in 1954. Much of the east probably would secede also as they have mostly Russian heritage.
Which doesn't change the fact that over 20,000 Russian "polite green men" attacked and contained the Ukrainian forces in Crimea and controlled the referendum by force, arresting pro-Ukrainian activists. Or that the referendum itself was illegal. Or that before the "free" referendum the peninsula was plastered by thousands of Russian propaganda posters like these two, equating Ukrainians with Nazis:
(According to the translation on the site, the last poster says "Save Crimea and your family, vote correctly". Kind of creepy).
Russia ceased Crimea by force, pure and simple. Just like Germany seized the Sudetenland from Czechoslovakia in 1938. And the fact that Sudenenland was full of ethnic Germans doesn't change the fact that it was illegal then and it's illegal now.
Oh, and didn't the Baltic states overwhelmingly vote to join USSR after the Soviet army occupied them ?
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Originally Posted by lchoro
You're uninformed. Not surprising.
Uninformed about what, international law ? Or Russian propaganda ?
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Originally Posted by lchoro
Nonsense. There would be no Syrian rebels. There would be no war.
Without NATO, with smaller alliances all over the globe, there would be many wars. A multipolar world is a world at war. Learn history.
Last edited by Ummagumma; 11-26-2015 at 12:02 PM..
1) Putin is attacking ISIS and every other rebel group. He has been bombing the rebels aligned with West more than he's been bombing ISIS. He's there to (a) protect his. Ally Assad and (b) boost his and Russia's reputation as a force to be reckoned with.
Yea, you see, the pro-west forces are basically bordering the Syrian regime, Russia and Syria cannot advance on ISIS without neutralizing the pro-west rebels. If the pro-west rebels broke through the Syrian lines, that would put Russian airbase positions in danger, and having to withdraw. This is like someone breaking into you house, but worrying about the person in the car in the street; it is best to combat the person breaking in first.
Additionally, this whole "pro-west" is nonsense, stupid label put on by the west on rebels who are at best, a gray area of jihadists. The west does not even trust them enough to hand them anti-air weapons, that should tell you something right there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ummagumma
2) Putin seized Crimea illegally and by force, there's no going around this simple fact. There are multiple regions of the world where population is mixed and a large part of it would rather live in a neighboring country, this doesn't give that country the right to send their special forces to occupy that area. If Mexicans living in the Southwestern US decided to join Mexico, would it be OK for the Mexican government to send the troops in and then hold a "referendum" under their guns ?
Crimea voted to become independent, and then voted to join Russia. Crimea was an autonomous area of Ukraine, in which Ukraine took away this status. Crimea had no vote or choice when the USSR broke apart whether they wanted to be part of Ukraine or not, just as they did not have a choice when the USSR forced them to be part of the Ukrainian SSR.
Kosovo ring a bell? How about South Sudan? Finland? Every former Soviet Republic? all of these are countries in which its people decided to become its own country. The only issue with Crimea is that it joined Russia, that is it. If this was a reverse situation, in which Crimea voted to withdraw from Russia and join Ukraine, it would have had the full support of the West.
The borders of former USSR countries were drawn by Soviet leaders for the purpose of the USSR, not for the benefit of the populations. As we seen in the constant issues in Africa and the Middle East, these artificial borders create constant conflict due to the borders being established for reasons other than the benefit of the population. Everyone was so in a hurry for the USSR to dissolve, no one thought about the screwed up border areas that remained in its aftermath. To ignore this is being obtuse, and ignoring the desires of millions of people.
And what do you call the Iraqi and Afghan elections under US guns? Are those not US troops in those countries? Was it not Defense Secretary Gates that stated "we wanted Maliki as PM because we knew he was weak, so we did our best to make sure he won, but turned out he was not"? Is this not US influence in not only this election, but numerous others that take place?
Ukraine did not think jack squat about Crimea, did not even fire a shot in its defense, and over 90% of the Ukrainian military stationed there went over to Russia. Hardly anyone liked being part of Ukraine there, this has been clearly obvious since 1991 to anyone who has ever visited the area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ummagumma
3) Downing of the passenger jet was by criminal negligence and Russia is fighting tooth and nail to avoid admitting this simple fact. This is not much different from the US frigate shooting down an Iranian passenger plane, at least the US admitted that even though they later tried to put a spin on the story.
I do not disagree with this, I think Russia;s handling of it has been horrible. It was a mistake, simple as that, one in which the US and Ukraine has done, so I see no reason why all of the actions by Russia in regards to this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ummagumma
4) Without NATO we'd be in WW3 now. A multipolar world is the warring world. Learn history.
According to political theory, yes, a multipolar world is the most dangerous kind, whereas a bipolar world is the safest. Not sure what your point is with this, I never stated anything against NATO, other than Turkey should have never been a true NATO member, some kind of partnership at best. As I stated in another post, NATO is an organization without a real mission; zero combat involvements during the Cold War, four since. This is a military organization desperately looking for relevance. To say "Russia is a threat" is laughable at best, given about the number of economies in Europe and NATO that tower above Russia, France itself should have the economic means to fend of any Russian attack easily.
Nonsense, please explain why in more than a year western strikes have NOT targeted Assad's military? If we are so bent on overthrowing him why have we hit ISIS and NOT ONCE Assad's military?
Please explain.
Because that would be an attack on a state, that is why. So instead of all the complexities involved with an attack on a state, it is easier to provide arms via proxies to rebel groups. This is not a new concept, this was done constantly during the Cold War.
There is no actual reason to attack Assad as a state actor, none at all, so the West is not usually one to attack without some sort of reason that can pass the international standards test.
So the bully is so upset because Turkey stopped letting him viotate their air space. I wouldn't care if it was a nano second, he did it and he continued to do it. He's been harassing other NATO countries since they foamed sanctions on him because of his invasion on Ukraine. Just who the heck does he think he is? A bully of the world who has people killed if they don't agree with him.
He's as bad as ISIS.
I think no one should violate anyone's airspace, however, shooting down after a few seconds is a bit of an over reaction.
He is as bad as ISIS? Yet how many from Kyrgyzstan have fled to Russia for work, what is it, 1 out of every 5 are in Russia for work? How much does Kyrgyzstan love Russia dumping millions of dollars into the country? All the imports coming in from Russia ranging from food to technical assistance? Russia has been overly generous with your country, all under Putin, yet you state he is as bad as the ISIS?
Your country would be even more of a dump than it is if not for Russia, or you would be under the thumb of China who would treat it like a whipping boy.
Turkey violates airspace how many times per day? Turkey constantly violates Syrian, Iraqi, and Greek airspce, totaling thousands of times a year.
What did Turkey state after its plane was shot down by Syria in 2012?
"it is routine for jet fighters to sometimes fly in and out over borders"
"A short term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack"
What did Syria state after this incident?
"regretted that his country’s defense forces shot down a Turkish fighter jet"
Which doesn't make Putin into ISIS figther, he's been fighting for Assad, not against ISIS per se.
Which doesn't change the fact that over 20,000 Russian "polite green men" attacked and contained the Ukrainian forces in Crimea and controlled the referendum by force, arresting pro-Ukrainian activists. Or that the referendum itself was illegal. Or that before the "free" referendum the peninsula was plastered by thousands of Russian propaganda posters like these two, equating Ukrainians with Nazis:
(According to the translation on the site, the last poster says "Save Crimea and your family, vote correctly". Kind of creepy).
Russia ceased Crimea by force, pure and simple. Just like Germany seized the Sudetenland from Czechoslovakia in 1938. And the fact that Sudenenland was full of ethnic Germans doesn't change the fact that it was illegal then and it's illegal now.
Oh, and didn't the Baltic states overwhelmingly vote to join USSR after the Soviet army occupied them ?
Uninformed about what, international law ? Or Russian propaganda ?
Without NATO, with smaller alliances all over the globe, there would be many wars. A multipolar world is a world at war. Learn history.
The theory from American point of view of "law" - Assad should be removed and some mystical "democratic forces" are going to govern Syria.
The practical result; with an attempt to remove Assad the country is in chaos and radical Islam is taking a grip not only in Syria, but neighboring countries as well.
The theory of America "law" - the Russians in Crimea should be subjected under the " new democratic regime" in Kiev - that's the only way they have a chance for the "democratic prosperous future."
The practice; Ukrainian forces are wearing Nazi insignia and kill Russian civilian population of Donbass.
Hmm... if I were a Russian in Crimea, what should I prefer - "the word of law" according to American understanding, or should I say "the hell with your laws."
Yeah, what would I do - it's a tough one...
I think no one should violate anyone's airspace, however, shooting down after a few seconds is a bit of an over reaction.
That didn't deter the Soviets. The problem with your argument is that it wasn't the first or second time that Russian aircraft violated Turkish airspace or Turkey's repeated warnings to cease and desist such overflights. And some point, Turkey's patience was going to wear thin.
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