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Whoa. They really take their transit seriously in Germany, but Berlin's network looks like a plate of spaghetti. I don't know why cities just don't stick with straight-running lines north and south with some crosstown links. It would be so much simpler. Ideally, Detroit could have a very sensible network using the already established radial system with perhaps crosstown lines on Jefferson and Warren. I'm talking like 100 years from now, of course. Right now I'd just be happy to get an extended Woodward line running, then Jefferson, next Michigan Ave and Gratiot, in that order. Last in priority would be Grand River and Warren.
Whoa. They really take their transit seriously in Germany, but Berlin's network looks like a plate of spaghetti. I don't know why cities just don't stick with straight-running lines north and south with some crosstown links. It would be so much simpler. Ideally, Detroit could have a very sensible network using the already established radial system with perhaps crosstown lines on Jefferson and Warren. I'm talking like 100 years from now, of course. Right now I'd just be happy to get an extended Woodward line running, then Jefferson, next Michigan Ave and Gratiot, in that order. Last in priority would be Grand River and Warren.
* Yep, the radial system with at least one crosstown line. Buses could then handle the in-between segments, leaving the burbs to SMART.
* Re. the Berlin diagram: Keep in mind there is an even more complicated surface bus system (double deckers) overlaid. Then add some streetcars, bike paths, taxis, autobahns and you have a pretty complete system. The maintenance alone might pay for Detroit's fledgling system (I'm speculating).
Although I'm one who strongly believes Detroit needs to build a rapid transit network to move toward solving some critical urban ills, I'm not wild about the M1 proposal. I'm not sure that building a slow 8-mile, traffic-interfering system will get hard-core Detroiters out of their cars regardless of how sexy the trains look.
Here's what I would do, that imho would be the least expensive and most workable, at least for a starter system:
- EXTEND THE PEOPLE MOVER. North of Grand Circus park, expand then join the loop with both lines heading north preferably with lines looping behind the property lines, esp of the gorgeous the Fox Theatre, over Park and Wetherill streets, then closing the loop over the Fisher Freeway. At the Fisher & Woodward, the separate PM lines would form a 3-way junction, allowing some trains, east or west to merely continue the 1-way loop around downtown, or switching to a new double-track elevated line, heading North up the Woodward boulevard, with stops at Mack, Warren and terminating at a large (indoor-connection station) at New Center/GM Blvd.
- Create the (planned) Commuter Rail terminal with, at least, 4 tracks and 2 wide platforms... Conventional heavy rail, diesel Commuter trains would serve Ann Arbor, the Airport (yes, I'd build a branch directly to the air terminals), Pontiac and Mt. Clemens.
-- BRT up Woodward -- from Warren Road to the State Fairground (connecting to a planned commuter rail station there).
OPTION 1 - (slightly more expensive)-- return trains (double tracks) to the Dequindre cut and have trains terminate behind the Ren Cen as the old SEMTA Pontiac commuter line did until around 1980.
OPTION 2 - (Radical, very expensive) -- electrify the Pontiac commuter line through the Dequindre cut, with a tunnel from RenCen via Cadillac Sq./Campus Martius, extending out Michigan Av. to the (future rehabbed) Michigan Central Terminal, then out the Ann Arbor commuter rail route, but branching electrification off past Inkster and heading south on an elevated ROW into the airport.
OPTION 3 - (extremely Radical). do everything listed above, including -- electrifying the rest of the commuter rail network. Expanding the tunnel under downtown to 4-tracks creating a large terminal at Campus Martius that could accommodate future HSR from Toledo, Chicago, Pontiac-Flint + North Michigan, Canada (via Windsor), etc. Also, create a Light Rail line West along Jefferson to the Pointes... while heading east, the line will drop into a subway connecting to the PM, (extended) Woodward BRT, while circulating to the Cobo Conv. Center, before tunneling NW to Grand River then surfacing and heading out GR on the surface to near (or beyond) city limits to, say, Southfield.
Is it doable? ... I think so, if I may say so myself.
Although I'm one who strongly believes Detroit needs to build a rapid transit network to move toward solving some critical urban ills, I'm not wild about the M1 proposal. I'm not sure that building a slow 8-mile, traffic-interfering system will get hard-core Detroiters out of their cars regardless of how sexy the trains look.
Here's what I would do, that imho would be the least expensive and most workable, at least for a starter system:
- EXTEND THE PEOPLE MOVER. North of Grand Circus park, expand then join the loop with both lines heading north preferably with lines looping behind the property lines, esp of the gorgeous the Fox Theatre, over Park and Wetherill streets, then closing the loop over the Fisher Freeway. At the Fisher & Woodward, the separate PM lines would form a 3-way junction, allowing some trains, east or west to merely continue the 1-way loop around downtown, or switching to a new double-track elevated line, heading North up the Woodward boulevard, with stops at Mack, Warren and terminating at a large (indoor-connection station) at New Center/GM Blvd.
I've thought about ways to expand the PM many times, but in reality, it is an inefficient, outdated system. Trying to add to it, I think, would be a wasted effort. It was never built properly because the powers that be at the time lacked foresight. The original plan was much more extensive, but because nobody could agree on anything, the federal government pulled support for the project and what we got was nothing more than a downtown circulator. It was the second time our region royally screwed up mass transit. The first time being the extensive subway system planned for Detroit, which failed for similar reasons.
IMO, the only way the PM could be more useful is if you cut out half the stops. It stops far more times than necessary, which wastes time and money. If I were king, the following stops would be eliminated:
Millender Center
JLA
Fort/Cass
Times Square
Broadway
Bricktown
With the above stops gone, you'd now have 7 stops, each being a reasonable distance from the next:
Renaissance Center
Financial District
Cobo Hall
Michigan Ave
Grand Circus Park
Cadillac Center
Greektown
These stops would effectively serve all of downtown in less time for less money. The stupidity of having 13 stops on a 3 mile circuit highlights the stupidity of our mass transit planners. It's almost insulting that they assume people are incapable of walking more than 2 blocks at a time when the rest of the nation/world does it daily. We're not special.
Quote:
- Create the (planned) Commuter Rail terminal with, at least, 4 tracks and 2 wide platforms... Conventional heavy rail, diesel Commuter trains would serve Ann Arbor, the Airport (yes, I'd build a branch directly to the air terminals), Pontiac and Mt. Clemens.
-- BRT up Woodward -- from Warren Road to the State Fairground (connecting to a planned commuter rail station there).
This option would require commuters to take AT LEAST three forms of transit to get downtown: (1) commuter rail, (2) BRT, and (3) the People Mover. Additionally, many people would either have to drive or take a bus to the commuter rail station before even getting on the train. So, for those people, you're talking about 4 transfers in 1 commute, or 8 per day. Thus, while it sounds good in theory, it requires too many connections and would be more complicated than I think most people would find useful. Mass transit has to be simple. Transit should be as little hassle as possible once you know what stop to board and depart.
Quote:
OPTION 1 - (slightly more expensive)-- return trains (double tracks) to the Dequindre cut and have trains terminate behind the Ren Cen as the old SEMTA Pontiac commuter line did until around 1980.
OPTION 2 - (Radical, very expensive) -- electrify the Pontiac commuter line through the Dequindre cut, with a tunnel from RenCen via Cadillac Sq./Campus Martius, extending out Michigan Av. to the (future rehabbed) Michigan Central Terminal, then out the Ann Arbor commuter rail route, but branching electrification off past Inkster and heading south on an elevated ROW into the airport.
OPTION 3 - (extremely Radical). do everything listed above, including -- electrifying the rest of the commuter rail network. Expanding the tunnel under downtown to 4-tracks creating a large terminal at Campus Martius that could accommodate future HSR from Toledo, Chicago, Pontiac-Flint + North Michigan, Canada (via Windsor), etc. Also, create a Light Rail line West along Jefferson to the Pointes... while heading east, the line will drop into a subway connecting to the PM, (extended) Woodward BRT, while circulating to the Cobo Conv. Center, before tunneling NW to Grand River then surfacing and heading out GR on the surface to near (or beyond) city limits to, say, Southfield.
Is it doable? ... I think so, if I may say so myself.
I know you are simply discussing theories, but all of your options require the formation of an RTA, which no leadership outside the city limits seems keen on. Oakland and Wayne Counties are even allowing communities to "opt out" of the anorexic SMART bus service. They've got their heads so far up their arses, it would be a miracle just to get them to admit that our current spiral of deterioration based on complete auto dependence is dangerous and unsustainable. When gas hits $8+/gallon and the entire region seizes up, don't say I didn't predict it right here.
On the merits, I like your idea of commuter rail coming from the west, basically tracking Michigan Ave to the airport and Ann Arbor. That makes sense. The other commuter rail options are far too aggressive for anyone in this region to even fathom. You 'Option 3' would be well-accepted on the eastern seaboard and Europe, but not in Metro Detroit. People live too far apart here for the majority of people to take commuter trains. We screwed ourselves with this mania for sprawl. People better pray that GM really makes this electric car viable or else many people are going to find themselves prisoners in their own homes once the price of gas becomes an overwhelming burden. People may soon be spending more on gas than their mortgages, if they don't already. It's sad.
Right now, if we can get light rail running quickly from downtown to 8 Mile, I think people in southern Oakland County may be able to pressure Brooks Patterson into extending it to at least Royal Oak. The population density to that point makes sense. Next, work on extending the system to the other radial roads, i.e. Grand River, Gratiot, Michigan Ave, and Jefferson. Have SMART dedicate its efforts to running crosstown routes along the mile roads to get people to the train lines. I think that would probably best serve the most Metro Detroiters as possible.
^I hear you ForStarters... I was engaging in a little wistful musing, probably more than being grounded in the reality of Detroit -- hey, the transit mess (along with the resulting runaway sprawl didn't leap from nowhere)... You're right about Greater Detroit forming a Regional transit system, first...
... One thing I will disagree with you is about the PM being dated technology. Vancouver's wildly successful, expanded 42-mile Skytrain seems nearly identical to the PM -- driverless/fully automated standard gauge, linear induction... Plus, the expanded PM system is far smaller than Vancouver's, not to mention the fact that, an expanded PM serving downtown, Midtown and New Center, already has a working base to build upon, including rolling stock and repair facilities. Also, look at how successful Miami's automated rubber-tired Metro Mover is. If Detroit's PM actually served as a distributor of commuter rail or rapid transit -- which it was originally designed to do -- it would catch fire as well. As it is, PM does a pretty good job of moving crowds around during Lions games, the Auto Show and other big special events downtown.
The more conservative parts of my proposal actually are in motion, now; most notably the Ann Arbor commuter rail link. The next logical step is extension to Pontiac, where 2 intermediate Amtrak stations (Royal Oak and Birmingham) already exist, so we know the track is already authorized for passenger train use. Added stations at places like the State Fairgrounds, Bloomfield Hills, and maybe even Ferndale, would make a lot of sense. Something along the lines of my plan all won't happen in a few years, or even a decade, but it is doable.
As that Chinese proverb says: the journey of a million miles starts with one step...
... one more thing, ForStarters... You mention my ultimate proposed system is too complicated for Detroiters not used to transit... I'm not sure I agree ... Look at how disjointed LA's new and still rapidly expanding rail network is (hey, you can't even ride rail directly from the LAX airport to downtown ... now, it's shuttle to the LRT to yet another LRT to get into town... And yet, Angelenos, in their sprawling metropolis where pre-rail naysayers, like the ones in Detroit said wouldn't ride trains, are flocking to LA's LRT, HRT, commuter rail network. And TOD is springing up all along these rail lines, as well. And downtown LA, which was paltry 20 years ago, is expanding into a bigger, denser, pedestrian-friendly CBD... all for the good.
Also consider what's on the table for Detroit -- commuter rail to a terminal hub 2 miles north of downtown, forcing people to transfer to LRT to get downtown. At least using the Dequindre cut offers direct service into downtown...
Heavy Rail , either in Elevated or Subway format runs through the Densiet sections of Philly or any city. 20 miles of Heavy Rail is proposed / planned by 2035.
Regional Rail , its used to connect the various cities and towns in the Philly region. Regional Rail is the fastest form of Rail , and also connects the various Suburban networks to each other aswell as other systems connecting into other states... 335 Miles of Regional Rail are proposed / planned by 2040....
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