Billion dollar rail waste (Detroit, Franklin: how much, home, wages)

[Retroit]

Originally Posted by scolls

A good percentage of the residents rely on public transportation.

And if the city can afford light rail, I'm sure they can afford a few more buses to accommodate all the public transportation needs of the residents. (By the way, the city has recently eliminated some bus lines because they can't afford them anymore due to low ridership and lack of funds).

To be clear, I am not opposed to light rail in all cases. If there is a demand for public transportation that can not be met with buses, I totally support light rail (and even heavy rail if there is enough demand for it).

Also, this project is supported by Detroit's top business people (Illitch, Gilbert, Karmanos, Penske) who all put up their own money for this project

And how many tax breaks and other financial incentives have these men received from the city. If one of Detroit's top business people wanted to put up all the money for a replacement bridge to Canada, would you support him?

[Retroit]

Originally Posted by detroitlove

actually while you're talking, I know plenty of people who were umemployed for a long time that were fortunate enough to get jobs at the casinos and stadiums so they have benifitted from it

The old "any job is a good job" argument. I suppose if I opened a strip club, that would be as beneficial as if I opened up a high-tech manufacturing plant. Jobs can always be created, but are those jobs being created in wealth producing industries (i.e. manufacturing) or wealth consuming industries (i.e. entertainment)?

[Retroit]

Originally Posted by Ann_Arbor

Actually cities like Dallas, Portland and Charlotte, which have similar densities to Detroit have had light rail successful and are growing their networks. Even in Dallas, suburbs are buying in and wanting the network to be expanded in their jurisdiction to be connected.

Here is my feeling with light rail in Detroit; it needs this as a symbol more than anything else. There is no better location for this than along Woodward- from downtown to the suburbs. I'm sure initially, with the existing urban fabric, zoning and car mentality it, it is far from an 'investment'. However, to attract top-flight young professionals and keep up with hipper cities, you need to do this. So no, it is not a waste unless you want to see all the suburban Detroit kids move to Chicago and New York when they graduate college because the would rather live in an urban friendly environment than drive out to the Taco Bell on 14 Mile..

The old "if it works in one city, it will work in any city" argument. Have the cities you mentioned faced the urban blight and abandonment that Detroit has? Young people don't move to city just to take rides on public transportation. They are interested in business climate, safe residential areas, welcoming inclusive attitude of residents, etc.

We shouldn't build anything for symbolism. Detroit doesn't have the money to waste on symbolism when it can't even afford basic city services.

[Retroit]

Originally Posted by Bhaalspawn

College grads will go wherever they can find a job today regardless of whether or not light rail or mass transit is available. When it's so difficult to find an entry-level job that makes use of your college education you go where you can find career-building work in your field, whether that's to the Detroit area or Omaha.

The best way Michigan and the Detroit area could attract and retain college graduates is, very simply, to figure out how to increase the number of college-education-requiring jobs. Sadly, that's a daunting task because the other 49 states (and other nations) want to do that exact same thing and a nation's economy can only support so many college-education-requiring white collar jobs. (Most sheeple are unaware of it, but our nation actually has a huge oversupply of college graduates. One study even suggests that 17 million college degree holders are working jobs that don't require a college education.)

True, true, true! College has become over-rated or over-valued. China isn't kicking our ass economically because they have a surplus of college graduates; they are kicking our ass because their citizens are willing to get their hands dirty and because their government is pro-business.

College education has been a huge drain on our economy. Too much government revenue is being used to subsidize colleges and education. This, in turn has raised tuition costs, which has over-burdened college graduates with debt. We would be better of spending the money on high-school vocational programs (like what is done in Germany).

[ForStarters]

Originally Posted by retroit

china isn't kicking our ass economically because they have a surplus of college graduates; they are kicking our ass because their citizens are willing to get their hands dirty and because their government is pro-business.

China, a communist country = pro-business government? I think that's what you just said.

[Ann_Arbor]

Originally Posted by Retroit

The old "if it works in one city, it will work in any city" argument. Have the cities you mentioned faced the urban blight and abandonment that Detroit has? Young people don't move to city just to take rides on public transportation. They are interested in business climate, safe residential areas, welcoming inclusive attitude of residents, etc.

We shouldn't build anything for symbolism. Detroit doesn't have the money to waste on symbolism when it can't even afford basic city services.

I was providing my opinion to the thread topic- "Billion dollar rail waste". Business climate, safe residential areas, welcoming inclusive attitude of residents, etc. are all other needs that may warrant other discussion threads. You could however look at this project synergistically as it might do something to improve all of those conditions. Among providing transportation, opportunities to look at rezoning and re-adaptation (business and safety) along Woodward, the M1 project will most definitely be a sign to the outside that Detroit is welcoming and adapting as a 21st century city.

[djmilf]

Originally Posted by ForStarters

China, a communist country = pro-business government? I think that's what you just said.

For two millenium, China's always been China. The only difference has been who is in charge.

Communism was just another western idea borrowed by the Chinese to break the nation out of its subservience to the West and to re-establish its place in world affairs. In 1000 AD, China was the largest, wealthiest and most productive empire in the world. In 1950, China had been economically exploited by Britain and America for nearly a century and invaded and nearly conquered by the Japanese.

Social Communism couldn't restore China to its self-image as the center of the world, so a mixed form of state capitalism and nationalism is being tried, with much more success. What remains of Communism in China is purely ceremonial.

[Retroit]

Originally Posted by ForStarters

China, a communist country = pro-business government? I think that's what you just said.

Yep, that is correct. It may sound odd, but it's true. China is politically Communist, but economically it is mostly capitalistic. Only about 1/4 to 1/3 of the output is from government owned companies (mostly energy and heavy industries), compared to 100% before they started to transition to capitalism in 1978. It is probable that this trend will continue. Also, note I said "pro-business", not "pro-capitalism", as some businesses are still government-owned, but the government is very much interested in their profitability.

Politically, they are transitioning to democracy. It has already started on the local level. I'm sure it will spread to higher levels as the middle class grows and starts to demand more say.

It is very interesting what is taking place there. As they transition to pro-capitalism, we digress to anti-capitalism, at least toward American business. As Calvin Coolidge said back in the 1920s, when America was growing like China is today, "The business of America is business". Unfortunately, our current government believes their business is to suppress American business while giving China free reign.

[Bhaalspawn]

Originally Posted by Ann_Arbor

Sadly, the other attributes of the region will put the state on the back-end of job growth so if a graduate has an offer in Detroit, most likely the have one in a few other places.

If someone can get a college-education-requiring job in the Detroit area that doesn't necessarily mean that they can get one elsewhere. Today you take what you can get and a great many college graduates would be happy to have a single white collar job offer even if its in Timbucktu.

In other words, I don't think that a lack of public transit (or anything else for that matter) prevents college graduates from relocating to the Detroit area. There is such a huge oversupply that just about any knowledge-based college-education-requiring job will be happily filled even if it's in Michigan.

Besides, Michigan already produces large amounts of college graduates who grew up in the state who would be happy to settle in the state where they grew up. College graduates are leaving, not because they don't want to live in the state but simply because they have to go wherever they can find a job, or, if they can't find a job, where they think they would have a good chance of finding a job in the future.

[Bhaalspawn]

Originally Posted by Retroit

True, true, true! College has become over-rated or over-valued. China isn't kicking our ass economically because they have a surplus of college graduates; they are kicking our ass because their citizens are willing to get their hands dirty and because their government is pro-business.

China is kicking our ass because they have hundreds of millions of people who are willing to work for fifty cents an hour.

Our nation cannot possibly compete with that unless we reduce our own wages and standard of living to about $1 per hour and also remove environmental regulations and other labor regulations. (We can compete just as soon as we're willing to adopt a third world standard of living.)