Urban growth boundary in southeast Michigan (Detroit, Rockford: apartment, house, universities)

[weteath]

Originally Posted by MarvinStrong313

What surprised me is that Chicago is one of the most decentralized regions in America. It has one of the best urban cores the united states has to offer. How does that happen??? Downtown Chicago must be getting way to expensive. Atlanta didn't surprise me at all.

I don't find Chicago to be very decentralized, very big? Yes... and the NYC area is that much bigger but still didn't feel decentralized to me. My cousin took me to Jersey City and Newark, it's seems so odd but cool to have cities that close. In Newark you can see the NYC skyline and hop on a subway from Newark and be in NYC in 15 minutes. Jersey City is right across from NYC, may as well be the 6th borough as you can take the subway and be in NYC in 10 minutes.

We all know NYC is/can be expensive but if you want to go cheap my friend lives in appartment for 700 a month and he doesn't need a car. Cheap food is actually good in NYC area too. I was surprised at how cheap you can get a place in Chicago... if you wanted to live in Lincoln Park a one bedroom right in the middle starts at 600 and no roomates. Even Ann Arbor starts at like 800 and of course you can't compare a college town to an actual city. There are nice areas on the south side as well, especially near university of Chicago and closer to downtown, at the same time there are some bad areas, but I've been through them visiting my cousin they are pretty isolated though.

My cousin actually lives a few blocks from Englewood, that is one of the most dangerous hoods in the U.S. I walked thru during the day and yes, you'd definitely see why not to venture there late night, at the same time just a few blocks away at my cousins it felt more normal, obviously not vibrant at night like downtown or the northside, but my point being if you want cheap it's not like you are limited to choosing a bad area.

[313Weather]

Originally Posted by Arthur Digby Sellers

The well-to-do NYC workers commute from CONNECTICUT.

Are you sure you want the majority of people who support the tax base to move out of the region?

I highly doubt the folks in Metro Detroit would move to Windsor (where it's a pain in the ass to cross the border and the taxes are higher) or, heaven forbid, TOLEDO!!!, if they must commute to Metro Detroit for work.

[313Weather]

Originally Posted by weteath

I don't find Chicago to be very decentralized, very big? Yes... and the NYC area is that much bigger but still didn't feel decentralized to me. My cousin took me to Jersey City and Newark, it's seems so odd but cool to have cities that close. In Newark you can see the NYC skyline and hop on a subway from Newark and be in NYC in 15 minutes. Jersey City is right across from NYC, may as well be the 6th borough as you can take the subway and be in NYC in 10 minutes.

We all know NYC is/can be expensive but if you want to go cheap my friend lives in appartment for 700 a month and he doesn't need a car. Cheap food is actually good in NYC area too. I was surprised at how cheap you can get a place in Chicago... if you wanted to live in Lincoln Park a one bedroom right in the middle starts at 600 and no roomates. Even Ann Arbor starts at like 800 and of course you can't compare a college town to an actual city. There are nice areas on the south side as well, especially near university of Chicago and closer to downtown, at the same time there are some bad areas, but I've been through them visiting my cousin they are pretty isolated though.

My cousin actually lives a few blocks from Englewood, that is one of the most dangerous hoods in the U.S. I walked thru during the day and yes, you'd definitely see why not to venture there late night, at the same time just a few blocks away at my cousins it felt more normal, obviously not vibrant at night like downtown or the northside, but my point being if you want cheap it's not like you are limited to choosing a bad area.

For a city like Chicago, it does have a stupid cheap COL overall.

For $1,500 per month, you can probably get a decent apartment in one of the high rises downtown. Essentially, you're getting Manhattan on the cheap.

[Arthur Digby Sellers]

Originally Posted by 313Weather

I highly doubt the folks in Metro Detroit would move to Windsor (where it's a pain in the ass to cross the border and the taxes are higher) or, heaven forbid, TOLEDO!!!, if they must commute to Metro Detroit for work.

Sure they will. The people who can most afford to move will. People have been doing it in NYC for 50 years.

I work with people who commute from both Toledo and Windsor. Its not that uncommon.

[zthatzmanz28]

The city of Detroit has been unable to grow during the past 25 years. A quick drive around some suburban areas also shows sign of TOO FAST TOO SOON growth with abandoned developments, empty retail / commercial space because there is no real financial backbone to support urban development.
There are many business that can only be supported in cities like Detroit that have to adopt the re-invented industrial model to survive.
Outlying areas will never tolerate huge industrial development whch can create the financial means for expansion.
I do think there might be a few communities that could expand in the future once the money aspect is stabilized. I even wonder if a few might "expand" into Detroit and begin to reclaim border areas of the city so they might create their own industrialized blocks?

[weteath]

Originally Posted by Arthur Digby Sellers

Sure they will. The people who can most afford to move will. People have been doing it in NYC for 50 years.

I work with people who commute from both Toledo and Windsor. Its not that uncommon.

I'm not so sure that is the case in NYC, I mean many people pay 4k a month for apartments, and there are people who pay more than that for the real ritzy realtors you have to call. I know people commute from Connecticut to NYC, but let's not pretend some people in NYC don't have enough money to leave. Some people actually like living in cities, thus why super wealthy can afford to buy a million dollar apartment... have a personal driver, and eat at the most expensive restaurants.

If I were wealthy I wouldn't choose the hamptons, I'm the type that likes being in the thick of things... I'd pick somewhere in manhattan. However, if you want a big home and seclusion there is plenty of it in America.

Now to be more on topic, if Detroit turned around today and property prices adjusted to that... You would actually see Detroit be a benefit to home prices in the suburbs. I'm not trying to bag on Detroit, but I read here all the time how people talk about not wanting to live in the same county of Detroit etc. In Chicago, NYC, LA, SF, Boston etc, the cities actually raise property value for the surrounding areas. I mean I went to visit my friend in NYC, he is living in an area that was industrial looking and near projects, guess what... you got these young people(heck of a lot from the Midwest) living in these areas. They are turning those places around.

The funny thing is think if these people stayed in their Midwest(besides Chicago) cities, but there lies the problem, in the area that looked bad near my friend, all these hipster types walking around at nite and cops/police station attached to project building and subway stops and startup businesses make it feel safe to walk around, even women doing so at nite. Detroit... you have no reason to venture into the visibly unsafe areas because there aren't people walking around them at nite and various other factors.

[313Weather]

Originally Posted by Arthur Digby Sellers

Sure they will. The people who can most afford to move will. People have been doing it in NYC for 50 years.

I work with people who commute from both Toledo and Windsor. Its not that uncommon.

I wasn't going to mention it, but your argument is non-sequitor.

1. It's much easier to cross state borders than it is to cross international state borders (especially after 9/11). This is especially true in the NYC/Connecticut case where the commuters usually have a choice to take mass transit (which is much cheaper) versus the automobile.

2. The folks who commute to Detroit from Canada have probably always lived there (thus they're used to Canadian living standards and also don't have to go through all the crap of becoming Canadian citizens). It's the same with the folks who commute from Toledo.

3. Why the hell would anyone want to move from Metro Detroit to Toledo to simply spite the city of Detroit when their whole lives have been invested in Metro Detroit? Is that the logic accepted as normal around here? What the hell is in Toledo that they can't have better in Detroit?

As I said before, if #3 is the case, let them leave. We'll be much better off.

[Arthur Digby Sellers]

Originally Posted by 313Weather

I wasn't going to mention it, but your argument is non-sequitor.

1. It's much easier to cross state borders than it is to cross international state borders (especially after 9/11). This is especially true in the NYC/Connecticut case where the commuters usually have a choice to take mass transit (which is much cheaper) versus the automobile.

2. The folks who commute to Detroit from Canada have probably always lived there (thus they're used to Canadian living standards and also don't have to go through all the crap of becoming Canadian citizens). It's the same with the folks who commute from Toledo.

3. Why the hell would anyone want to move from Metro Detroit to Toledo to simply spite the city of Detroit when their whole lives have been invested in Metro Detroit? Is that the logic accepted as normal around here? What the hell is in Toledo that they can't have better in Detroit?

As I said before, if #3 is the case, let them leave. We'll be much better off.

Your point was that no one commutes from as far from Toledo or Windsor.

Why are you assuming it would be out of "spite"? You sound like Detroit city council with your persecution mentality.

My point is if you try to force someone to live where they may not want to, it will likely fail.

[reppin_the_847]

You're partially correct, but in reality NYC has wealth oozing from many corners far & near. There are numerous ZIP codes right in Manhattan that are some of the most expensive in the country. And of course commuters from various towns in suburban Westchester County, Nassau County (Long Island), various counties in New Jersey, and as you mentioned, Fairfield County in Connecticut. As far as people that work in the city, I'm sure there are a ton that live in the city, and plenty that commute in from the surrounding boroughs & counties. They also happen to have the best public transit system in America as well though.

Originally Posted by Arthur Digby Sellers

The well-to-do NYC workers commute from CONNECTICUT.

Are you sure you want the majority of people who support the tax base to move out of the region?

[Arthur Digby Sellers]

Originally Posted by reppin_the_847

You're partially correct, but in reality NYC has wealth oozing from many corners far & near. There are numerous ZIP codes right in Manhattan that are some of the most expensive in the country. And of course commuters from various towns in suburban Westchester County, Nassau County (Long Island), various counties in New Jersey, and as you mentioned, Fairfield County in Connecticut. As far as people that work in the city, I'm sure there are a ton that live in the city, and plenty that commute in from the surrounding boroughs & counties. They also happen to have the best public transit system in America as well though.

No doubt. My point is only that you can't snap your fingers, put up an arbitrary boundary and expect everyone to live within it. There are always ways around it. If you have to resort to trying to force people to live in your city, you're doing something wrong.