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I am honestly not trying to twist your words or nit pick. I am trying to find the logical implications of your words. For an example of implications, I have had conversations with people who have told me that they believe most people are poor due to personal irresponsibility. That belief has racial implications given that black rates of poverty is 3 times that of whites. So the logical implication is that black people are more irresponsible than white people....but why would that be true if not for external reasons and to dismiss external causation is to select internal causation. Again, one cannot assume inherent racial equality as a premise, then infer racial inequality is due to inherent reasons. Once can only logically get to that conclusion if the stated or unstated premise is one of inherent racial inequality....in other words....the belief in inherent racial differences manifest in different outcomes in performance and behavior.
You have dismissed that there is a difference in the black experience that would explain why they have a greater propensity to see themselves as victims. You then state that everyone can see themselves as victims but choose not to, which implies that blacks are an anomaly because they cannot make the "superior" choice like others. That is not your words, true, but I dare say that you believe that choosing not to see ones self as a victim is a mentally superior cognition than one seeing oneself as a victim....and by implication blacks don't seem to be able to make the mentally superior choice. That is the implication of what you are saying whether you say it or not. Again, if A = B and B = C, why cannot I say that the implication is that A = C without being accused of twisting a persons word, slander and ill will? The A = C in this case is that blacks are inferior somehow, because you dismissed all the potential causation's that would not point to an inherent inferiority in blacks.
The problem with your approach is that you're looking too deeply for something that isn't there. You're trying to find meaning in something that is essentially nothing more than WYSIWYG. The fact that you went to this length to try to understand a very basic statement that I wrote gives me this impression.
No...I was responding to the assertion that blacks did not want to assimilate. Thus, I thought it important that I stress that it was BLACKS who were leading the fight for integration while the faces that were protesting it were white.
I am well aware of the role whites have played in ending slavery and segregation.....but the assertion by Republic of Michigan implies that blacks did not want to assimilate. How could I disprove that by focusing on whites who fought for integration? My goal was to disprove his assertion by pointing out that INDEED, blacks were leading the drive for integration. It was blacks who were moving into white schools and communities BY DESIRE...which disproves that we did not want to assimilate.
Now....in regards to focusing on the mostly negative....I would contend that things had to be mostly negative to produce the negative effect that it did upon blacks. That is not to suggest that there were not positive forces, but for the mast majority of history in this nation the forces of negativity over powered the forces of positivity which is why slavery lasted for centuries and Jim Crow 100 years.
I absolutely will not deny your emotions, nor will I deny that great harm was done to black folks by white folks.
But seriously, that was decades ago. Is there still institutionalised racism, you bet. But it is leveled against Asians and Hispanics too. And on the flip side, there are programs, and tons of them, aimed at helping and supporting impoverished people of color. All run and mostly funded by white people, the ones I know of. And how do I know this...because I volunteer weekly with two different organizations that serve underrepresented populations. And almost without exception, those that serve are white.
The problem with your approach is that you're looking too deeply for something that isn't there. You're trying to find meaning in something that is essentially nothing more than WYSIWYG. The fact that you went to this length to try to understand a very basic statement that I wrote gives me this impression.
I disagree. Communication is nuanced....and has meaning beyond the face values of the words used. They have implications. If I said that I do not like predominately white cities.....and then you tell me that I do not like Portland, Oregon by implication.....then I say I never said that and you are making too much of it. What would your response be?
I absolutely will not deny your emotions, nor will I deny that great harm was done to black folks by white folks.
But seriously, that was decades ago. Is there still institutionalised racism, you bet. But it is leveled against Asians and Hispanics too. And on the flip side, there are programs, and tons of them, aimed at helping and supporting impoverished people of color. All run and mostly funded by white people, the ones I know of. And how do I know this...because I volunteer weekly with two different organizations that serve underrepresented populations. And almost without exception, those that serve are white.
I don't disagree with any of that. However, you do not recover from 3 centuries of discrimination in a generation.....especially in an era where the country is offering diminishing economic returns on the whole and while the larger culture is also in decline.
Again...... I challenge anyone to dispute this claim without the repudiation implying black inferiority. "There go we if not for the grace of not having gone through what they have gone through". All I hear is "We been there and experienced that and are still better than you in performance and behavior".
When you say you will not deny my emotions.......I do not know what that means because I am not emotional about the subject of black history. To me this is a logical and intellectual analysis....
I don't disagree with any of that. However, you do not recover from 3 centuries of discrimination in a generation.....especially in an era where the country is offering diminishing economic returns on the whole and while the larger culture is also in decline.
Again...... I challenge anyone to dispute this claim without the repudiation implying black inferiority. "There go we if not for the grace of not having gone through what they have gone through". All I hear is "We been there and experienced that and are still better than you in performance and behavior".
Well since you agree (I think) that dwelling on 300-year-old harms is not that useful, what do you suggest as a way to move forward?
I hear your last sentence and (not to beat a dead horse) but as a child of Holocaust survivors who have moved on very handily and do NOT dwell on the horrors visited upon them just one generation ago, what are your thoughts on this? Why, by your account, do black Americans have such a tough time? Why, by your account, are black Americans inferior?*
*Note that Indentured Servant is the only one in this discussion calling black Americans "inferior."
I don't disagree with any of that. However, you do not recover from 3 centuries of discrimination in a generation
Let's test that premise. Let's suppose an African-American child is adopted at birth by a white family and grows up in a white community. Would that African-American be justified in claiming that because his ancestors were discriminated against for 3 centuries that he should not be expected to amount to much in life?
Well since you agree (I think) that dwelling on 300-year-old harms is not that useful, what do you suggest as a way to move forward?
I hear your last sentence and (not to beat a dead horse) but as a child of Holocaust survivors who have moved on very handily and do NOT dwell on the horrors visited upon them just one generation ago, what are your thoughts on this? Why, by your account, do black Americans have such a tough time? Why, by your account, are black Americans inferior?*
*Note that Indentured Servant is the only one in this discussion calling black Americans "inferior."
If dwelling on history motivates you.....then its good and if dwelling on history demotivates you its bad. Why assume that the past only can produce negative emotions such as anger, bitterness and loathing? That is simply not how human nature works in populations. It has a tendency to produce positive as well as negative emotions. Many people may be inspired to achieve for the sake of honoring their ancestors. So I guess I do not agree with you.
In regards to the Jewish situation.....from what I see the Jewish people DWELL ON THEIR HISTORY and have an anti-defamation league and have holocaust museums and such. It seems to me that they have the perception that they were VICTIMS as well.
I have to much respect for persecuted people to get into comparing the Jewish experience with the black experience. However, I still stand by my assertion that all races would perform the same given the same circumstances. The thing is that the circumstances have NEVER been the same in degree, kind and context of the era. So you cannot really compare situations. However, if one fundamentally believed the premise that all races would perform the same given the same circumstances then they would accept that different circumstances explain the different outcomes. Its only when people DO NOT ACCEPT the premise that different races would perform the same given the same circumstances that they do not accept that different circumstances explains the different outcomes of the races.
Well.....I do not think anyone on this forum would come out right and say that they believe that blacks are inferior.......instead they just remove any external reason that would explain the unequal racial realities of performance and behavior... thereby not having to say it.....because that is the only thing left to explain the inequalities.... by default.
Let's test that premise. Let's suppose an African-American child is adopted at birth by a white family and grows up in a white community. Would that African-American be justified in claiming that because his ancestors were discriminated against for 3 centuries that he should not be expected to amount to much in life?
Hmong and Vietnamese immigants, as well as several others, came from brutal regimes to the US in the 60s and 70s. As a group, they tend to be very successful.
Many Jewish immigrants came to the US (1930s, 1940s) not even one generation removed from incredible brutality and state takeover of everything they owned. Ditto.
Both of thes groups "assimilated" (my working definition is, assumed the mores of the dominant group) and, game over and win.
Well.....I do not think anyone on this forum would come out right and say that they believe that blacks are inferior.......instead they just remove any external reason that would explain the unequal racial realities of performance and behavior... thereby not having to say it.....because that is the only thing left to explain the inequalities.... by default.
I, for one, haven't removed any external reasons that would explain the unequal racial realities. I believe the unequal realities are attributable to the choices that are made within black communities such as much of Detroit. I don't think history has much part to play other than as an excuse (which it shouldn't be because blacks have a lot to be proud of historically).
Hmong and Vietnamese immigants, as well as several others, came from brutal regimes to the US in the 60s and 70s. As a group, they tend to be very successful.
Many Jewish immigrants came to the US (1930s, 1940s) not even one generation removed from incredible brutality and state takeover of everything they owned. Ditto.
Both of thes groups "assimilated" (my working definition is, assumed the mores of the dominant group) and, game over and win.
Very true, and so have some blacks. And so not have some whites. Which goes to show that none of us are trying to insinuate that blacks are inherently inferior. ( <- That's directed at I.S.)
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