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So it looks like I unintentionally signed up for a novice dog training class with a trainer who uses negative reinforcement. I guess I just assumed that most trainers these days use positive methods but during our orientation last weekend, she mentioned that she uses leash pops and she also advocated the use of prong collars I've already taught my dog most of the basic commands except for "leave it," but I registered us for the class because I wanted to make sure he was able to follow the commands in a distracting environment.
When I trained my first dog 12 years ago the trainer (not this trainer) used all positive methods, no punishments, and my dog did fine learning the commands even though she wasn't the smartest dog. My second dog was super smart and I taught him myself. My third dog (the one I'm taking the class with) is of at least average intelligence and tiny (only 30 pounds) and I don't really feel it's necessary to jerk him around when he doesn't follow the commands. I'm not quite sure how to deal with the trainer if she tells me to give him a leash pop, which I won't do. There are no refunds once you pay for the class (even if it's months before the class starts) so I'd like to make the best of it if possible, any thoughts?
So it looks like I unintentionally signed up for a novice dog training class with a trainer who uses negative reinforcement. I guess I just assumed that most trainers these days use positive methods but during our orientation last weekend, she mentioned that she uses leash pops and she also advocated the use of prong collars I've already taught my dog most of the basic commands except for "leave it," but I registered us for the class because I wanted to make sure he was able to follow the commands in a distracting environment.
When I trained my first dog 12 years ago the trainer (not this trainer) used all positive methods, no punishments, and my dog did fine learning the commands even though she wasn't the smartest dog. My second dog was super smart and I taught him myself. My third dog (the one I'm taking the class with) is of at least average intelligence and tiny (only 30 pounds) and I don't really feel it's necessary to jerk him around when he doesn't follow the commands. I'm not quite sure how to deal with the trainer if she tells me to give him a leash pop, which I won't do. There are no refunds once you pay for the class (even if it's months before the class starts) so I'd like to make the best of it if possible, any thoughts?
Find a different class and consider the class fee an investment in your dog's welfare and a costly lesson for you to observe a class before signing up. Even if a trainer uses positive methods he/she may be lousy with people, may not keep dogs leashed/under control in the class and a host of other undesirable things so it's always wise to observe a class before committing.
Attending a novice class as a distraction training tool is a great idea but if you and the instructor will be at odds how reinforcing will that be for you and for your dog? Good way for your dog to learn that class is a stressful place so no thanks to that.
You could speak to the trainer privately and before the first class with dogs in attendance (not five minutes before class starts cause that gives her no time to think and respond; I would call her or set a time to meet in person) and see if she is willing to allow you to do your own thing. But, from her POV as leader of the class, that will be confusing for her other students since 1) she won't be giving you instruction and 2) you will be doing things differently from how she instructs the other students so she may not go for it. Of course you and your dog would be a great example for the other students but she prolly won't see it that way. OTOH and even if she has a "no refund" policy, she may be willing to refund you the fee if the class is full and she has someone wanting to get in so chatting with her might be beneficial from that standpoint.
there is a time and place for negative reinforcement...
and I have no problem with a PROPERLY used prong collar...
However there is never a place for "leash pops" ESPECIALLY in combination with a prong collar (prong collars should never be used for any form of human correction, the dog should always be 100% in charge of self correction on a prong)
the leash pops in combination with prong use worries me enough that id find a new trainer, leash pops with a prong are ot neg reinforcement, its dangerous. and not how they were designed to eb used...
and if they are misuing that tool...
makes you wonder what other tools and methods they are misuing/miseducating.
Find a different class and consider the class fee an investment in your dog's welfare and a costly lesson for you to observe a class before signing up.
You could speak to the trainer privately and before the first class with dogs in attendance (not five minutes before class starts cause that gives her no time to think and respond; I would call her or set a time to meet in person) and see if she is willing to allow you to do your own thing.
OTOH and even if she has a "no refund" policy, she may be willing to refund you the fee if the class is full and she has someone wanting to get in so chatting with her might be beneficial from that standpoint.
Agree with JD on all points, but would just add that in the future, I would always sit in on a prospective trainer's class so that you can evaluate her methods and see if you feel you want to work with her. This shouldn't be an issue with a reputable trainer and they should be happy to speak with you afterwards if you have any questions.
As well, bear in mind that anybody can call themselves a trainer. The CPDT certification after a trainer's name will provide assurance that the trainer's knowledge and skills have been tested to a pretty high standard, e.g. Mary Smith CPDT-KA (knowledge assessed) or Mary Smith-SA (skills assessed).
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldDocKat Negative reinforcement is called 'response cost' taking away a goodie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenlove
Yup. Leash pops and prong collars are positive punishment.
The correct terminology is often inadvertently misused by laypeople and it is easy to understand why. Though a clear explanation can be valuable, I think the OP's intent was obvious. It can help to understand that "positive" is giving or administering something and "negative" is removing or taking something away. Anyway, I hope the following explanation helps.
Some key concepts in operant conditioning: Reinforcement
Reinforcement is any event that strengthens or increases the behavior it follows. There are two kinds of reinforcers:
Positive reinforcers are favorable events or outcomes that are presented after the behavior. In situations that reflect positive reinforcement, a response or behavior is strengthened by the addition of something, such as praise or a direct reward.
Negative reinforcers involve the removal of an unfavorable events or outcomes after the display of a behavior. In these situations, a response is strengthened by the removal of something considered unpleasant.
In both of these cases of reinforcement, the behavior increases. Punishment
Punishment, on the other hand, is the presentation of an adverse event or outcome that causes a decrease in the behavior it follows. There are two kinds of punishment:
Positive punishment, sometimes referred to as punishment by application, involves the presentation of an unfavorable event or outcome in order to weaken the response it follows.
Negative punishment, also known as punishment by removal, occurs when an favorable event or outcome is removed after a behavior occurs.
In both of these cases of punishment, the behavior decreases.
Now I write:
1. Reward my dog for downing...giving (positive) a treat when my dog downs (increase behavior) so positive reinforcement
2. Forced retrieve...removing (negative) the pinching fingers from the dog's ear when the dog finally picks up the bumper (increase behavior) so negative reinforcement
3. Leash pop...giving (positive) a jerk on the leash to decrease pulling (decrease behavior) so positive punishment
4. Taking my dog off the start line when she breaks her stay...removing (negative) her access to fun agility when she breaks her stay (decrease behavior) so negative punishment
Agree with JD on all points, but would just add that in the future, I would always sit in on a prospective trainer's class so that you can evaluate her methods and see if you feel you want to work with her. This shouldn't be an issue with a reputable trainer and they should be happy to speak with you afterwards if you have any questions.
As well, bear in mind that anybody can call themselves a trainer. The CPDT certification after a trainer's name will provide assurance that the trainer's knowledge and skills have been tested to a pretty high standard, e.g. Mary Smith CPDT-KA (knowledge assessed) or Mary Smith-SA (skills assessed).
Twelve...we agree on *all* points even without your add. I wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumpindogs
Find a different class and consider the class fee an investment in your dog's welfare and a costly lesson for you to observe a class before signing up. Even if a trainer uses positive methods he/she may be lousy with people, may not keep dogs leashed/under control in the class and a host of other undesirable things so it's always wise to observe a class before committing.
Attending a novice class as a distraction training tool is a great idea but if you and the instructor will be at odds how reinforcing will that be for you and for your dog? Good way for your dog to learn that class is a stressful place so no thanks to that.
You could speak to the trainer privately and before the first class with dogs in attendance (not five minutes before class starts cause that gives her no time to think and respond; I would call her or set a time to meet in person) and see if she is willing to allow you to do your own thing. But, from her POV as leader of the class, that will be confusing for her other students since 1) she won't be giving you instruction and 2) you will be doing things differently from how she instructs the other students so she may not go for it. Of course you and your dog would be a great example for the other students but she prolly won't see it that way. OTOH and even if she has a "no refund" policy, she may be willing to refund you the fee if the class is full and she has someone wanting to get in so chatting with her might be beneficial from that standpoint.
Oh my yes, I totally missed that. I clearly hadn't had enough caffeine yet
I totally get that.
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I've already taught my dog most of the basic commands except for "leave it," but I registered us for the class because I wanted to make sure he was able to follow the commands in a distracting environment. 
Even if a trainer uses positive methods he/she may be lousy with people, may not keep dogs leashed/under control in the class and a host of other undesirable things so it's always wise to observe a class before committing.
I wrote:
