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This is not an obedient dog. Submissive, yes, but not obedient. She will not even 'sit' unless there is a treat in my hand.
The 'be a lady!' is from when she used to jump on me when I had her dinner in my hand. She knows the command 'sit', by voice and by silent hand signal. But won't obey unless there is a treat or food in my hand.
"Submissive" has nothing to do with obedience or lack to it. FWIW, I don't want to see a dog being "submissive" during training because it indicates a lack of confidence and/or fear. More importantly, it indicates that the dog isn't enjoying training. Training should be fun and a way to bond; if she is expressing submissive or anxious behaviors then consider changing your methods.
She isn't being "obedient' because she doesn't know what you want her to do. And before you say you have been training her, it sounds like you have used a lot of luring, which doesn't teach the dog anything. You have to actively teach the dog what you want her to do.
If you start training with a treat in your hand to help the dog understand what you want- you absolutely must fade that lure ASAP. If you continue luring then the dog does exactly what you dog is now doing- only doing the cue if you have a treat in your hand.
Back your training up to the initial phase- start from scratch with the lure and no cues. Once the dog is happily performing the "sit" for instance, put the cue to the behavior, and then fade the lure out. Ask for the behavior once, and wait the dog out; normally it takes the dog a few seconds to figure out the behavior you want; if she doesn't "get" it within a few seconds, then "re-set"- circle the dog or walk it away, and then again ask for the behavior (once), and wait her out.
As well, behaviors that get reinforced get repeated, so when your dog offers a lovely appropriate sit or other desirable behavior, reinforce that behavior with a treat if handy or otherwise praise, belly rub.
But she is stubborn. That thing that goes around facebook where the dog is ignoring the human's 'silly furniture blockade' meant to keep off the couch? That is her.
I let her on the couch next to me on her own blanket. She will jump up there when I'm not prepped for her to and SHOVE ME OVER. She will not stay on her side of the bed. She doesn't seem to understand there is such a thing. Despite repeatedly saying 'down' and then back up to a specific spot on a blanket of hers.
Dogs aren't stubborn. They either don't know what you want or there has been a breakdown somewhere in the training. All flaws in the training program come directly back to the human, not the dog. If your dog doesn't understand what you want, it is up to you to change your training plan so that you are better able to more clearly teach her what you want.
You have to teach her what you want her to do. Manage the situation and the environment so that until she learns what you want she doesn't have the opportunity to be naughty.
Dogs don't understand "sometimes" as in sometimes I can get up on the couch and sometimes not. If you want her to wait until you are ready for her to get up, then teach her a "wait" cue.
These are basic Dog 101 situations. Work on the focusing exercises as others have mentioned. Start setting up and heavily reinforcing desirable behaviors that your dog offers, e.g. sit, settle, letting the leash loosen a bit, checking in with you. I guarantee that your dog is doing a lot of really awesome behaviors that you aren't seeing. Training a dog is like the old commercial "catch your kids doing something right." Well, here you need to actively engage with your dog, tune in to them, watch them, and catch her doing things right then reward with jackpot treats.
Training might progress more quickly if you work with a reward-based CPDT-KA certified trainer who will be able to teach you how to train your dog using gentle effective methods and who can help you understand how to communicate more effectively with your dog.
Last edited by twelvepaw; 08-29-2017 at 05:54 PM..
She is not submissive in training. I mean in general. Yes, she is fearful. Even of me, it seems sometimes. If I make a sudden movement.
This is a bit of an unusual situation. I've only had her part-time since my mother died. She has always behaved well enough that I didn't HAVE to go full on training, like I did before with puppies. With puppies there is no choice. It has to be done, and it has to be done right.
My first priority was to ease her fear. We couldn't even walk because all humans, dogs, sounds, caused her to put her tail between her legs and drag me home.
Along the way I taught her SOME things. Don't steal my food, don't get into the trash, sit, SHH, but gently, gently. She had enough harsh 'training' in her original home before my Mom's.
Yes, she does learn a lot in a very passive way. Like with the milk. I said No! when she would steal it, but there was no punishment or lecturing or finger wagging. Just one 'no!' IF I caught her in the act, and then clean it up and forget it happened.
Then I started carrying my milk around with me instead of leaving it on the table, and now I can leave it on the table and she doesn't touch it. I think just me 'guarding' it taught her.
Anyway, she (to my mind) first needed to feel safe. Poor baby worries I won't like her squeaking her squeaky toys!
Also we had to socialize so she could enjoy being outside/walks! That took months. Engaging as many people who were willing to offer her treats and so on and so forth until now she will even approach a stranger. Carefully, but she will approach. And quickly decide that most people are ALRIGHT!
I varied my walking route every day to literally seek out friendly dogs for her to learn they are not all scary. When the little yappies go off I say it's ok! And keep talking in an upbeat way. They don't scare her anymore, we just walk on by.
She does a lot of things right as you said regarding that too. She can't approach everyone all the time. A very gentle tug on the leash to return to my side works. Or sometimes just saying her name in a tone that is firm but not mean.
Until the barking started, other people always remarked that she is a very well-behaved dog.
You are right I need to get more structured now that we are past some major hurdles. Starting with two issues: the barking at other dogs and the 'wait' to get on the couch.
I disagree with you that dogs cannot be stubborn. I literally have no idea what it would take to keep this dog off of couches and beds. She was never allowed either at my Moms and she never stopped trying.
When I house-sat over there I was like OMG! The dog was ON TOP OF ME on the couch and as brazen as you please, stole every bit of my food that she could, which added up to ALOT over that month!
So, I feel like we have done pretty well so far, considering. And I never had to be harsh even about food. Now, I could walk out of the room with most foods out and she won't touch them.
Many times I didn't catch her in the act, so I couldn't even say no. I would just calmly take it from her and put it in a trash can she can't reach.
She doesn't get into trash anymore either. Partly because anything she'd want is in a trash can out of her reach everyday all the time. And straight out the door when it's near-full. Partly because she knows I don't like it. If I forget now and toss something into a container she can reach, she doesn't go after it anymore. :-)
OMG her behavior re: walking sounds exactly how my senior chi was!
She kept tail tucked the entire walk, kept stopping dead and looking around and cowering, even when no new stimulus had been introduced like humans/dogs/noises.
I NEVER, ever used treats; I never have with any dog and I have rehabbed a handful of nutcases.
Not saying treats are bad in all cases, I know they are widely used and honestly do not know enough about all training methods to have an intelligent opinion on their use; but I never wanted food to be a reward, I wanted the dog to behave whether food was in play or not.
It took MONTHS, just as you said, to get her to where she enjoyed to walk.
We walked from 7am to 9am this morning; she loves walks now.
THANK YOU for helping a dog in need. Truly, thank you.
OMG her behavior re: walking sounds exactly how my senior chi was!
She kept tail tucked the entire walk, kept stopping dead and looking around and cowering, even when no new stimulus had been introduced like humans/dogs/noises.
I NEVER, ever used treats; I never have with any dog and I have rehabbed a handful of nutcases.
Not saying treats are bad in all cases, I know they are widely used and honestly do not know enough about all training methods to have an intelligent opinion on their use; but I never wanted food to be a reward, I wanted the dog to behave whether food was in play or not.
It took MONTHS, just as you said, to get her to where she enjoyed to walk.
We walked from 7am to 9am this morning; she loves walks now.
THANK YOU for helping a dog in need. Truly, thank you.
I've never had a bad result for using treats. Although with the baby puppy I did not use treats in potty training. I 'threw a party' when she went outside.
Some people also say to use regular food. Make the puppy work for it. In fact when my puppy got a little too big for her britches that is what a trainer told me to do.
Anyway with my other dog sometimes there was a treat and other times there was only praise and she was a very well-trained dog. Of course the treats fall away after the behavior is learned.
Ha. I just met a less well behaved dog and person than me. Walking his with no leash. Glad she is friendly and ran up to mine to 'chat'! I do want mine to keep having positive interactions.
I will never understand people's reluctance to use high value treats to train with.
Behaviors that get reinforced get repeated. = the first rule of successful dog training.
The dog decides what constitutes high value and whether a treat has the value to motivate it to work. So- do you really think that a piece of dry kibble has the same reinforcement value as a even a tiny piece of chicken breast?
Here is the thing. Would YOU work for cheap? If your employer said they would pay you $1/day would you be motivated to work? How would you feel if your employer said hey, I am giving you a raise to $500/day- wouldn't that get your attention and provide motivation? It would sure change my attitude toward my job It is the same with dogs. First you have to get their attention. Food is how you do that initially. Cut up chicken breast, liver, hamburger will all flip that switch in your dog's brain to whooooha, what do you want me to do for that?
When I am training I very very rarely lure with a treat and if I do it is only maybe once or twice when I am first teaching a new cue. Then I immediately flip to using a marker (word or clicker) and either capturing or shaping the behavior. When you train this way the dog understands that the treat is contingent on the behavior and not the other way around.
Initially I treat liberally because = behaviors that get reinforced get repeated- so I want that high level of reinforcement. Once a behavior is reliably on cue- sit for instance- I start randomizing treats so that the dog will maybe get one treat for 4 sits and then i phase them out entirely. My dogs don't get treated for sits or downs or any regular behavior unless I just want to treat them anyway. Or I give another type of reward e.g. belly rub or get to chase the ball, etc.
Can you train without using treats? Sure, absolutely. But- I want an eager motivated dog who loooooves to learn. I want an engaged thinking partner who wants to work with me. Using high value treats is the first step to motivating the dog and making that connection. All of my dogs work without a treat in sight. They work because they love to work.
I will never understand people's reluctance to use high value treats to train with.
Behaviors that get reinforced get repeated. = the first rule of successful dog training.
The dog decides what constitutes high value and whether a treat has the value to motivate it to work. So- do you really think that a piece of dry kibble has the same reinforcement value as a even a tiny piece of chicken breast?
Here is the thing. Would YOU work for cheap? If your employer said they would pay you $1/day would you be motivated to work? How would you feel if your employer said hey, I am giving you a raise to $500/day- wouldn't that get your attention and provide motivation? It would sure change my attitude toward my job It is the same with dogs. First you have to get their attention. Food is how you do that initially. Cut up chicken breast, liver, hamburger will all flip that switch in your dog's brain to whooooha, what do you want me to do for that?
When I am training I very very rarely lure with a treat and if I do it is only maybe once or twice when I am first teaching a new cue. Then I immediately flip to using a marker (word or clicker) and either capturing or shaping the behavior. When you train this way the dog understands that the treat is contingent on the behavior and not the other way around.
Initially I treat liberally because = behaviors that get reinforced get repeated- so I want that high level of reinforcement. Once a behavior is reliably on cue- sit for instance- I start randomizing treats so that the dog will maybe get one treat for 4 sits and then i phase them out entirely. My dogs don't get treated for sits or downs or any regular behavior unless I just want to treat them anyway. Or I give another type of reward e.g. belly rub or get to chase the ball, etc.
Can you train without using treats? Sure, absolutely. But- I want an eager motivated dog who loooooves to learn. I want an engaged thinking partner who wants to work with me. Using high value treats is the first step to motivating the dog and making that connection. All of my dogs work without a treat in sight. They work because they love to work.
I agree! Nothing wrong with other ways, imo, but there are no negatives to this way. But I will tell you something funny. MY dog, not this one, certain things there was no treat high value enough. Like 'freedom'. Not even ACTUAL BACON would lure her. I can't remember now how I got her to obey 'here' but she was a wild woman.
This one will do just about anything for any kind of food. We always have to take individuals into account.
Whoever said dogs cannot be stubborn is totally wrong.
Akitas are known to be stubborn. It can actually be a good quality.
Whoever said dogs cannot be stubborn is totally wrong.
Mmmm- that was probably me; I say that all the time. Dogs aren't stubborn in the way humans think of it. Just because they don't do what we want doesn't make them stubborn.
Just like humans different dogs learn differently. Some dogs respond well to an initial lure, but some don't. For instance, some dogs simply won't learn "down" in class because for whatever reason their butts pop up when their front end goes down, so luring them into position doesn't work. Rather than forcing a dog into a down, I explain to the owner how to teach the dog "down" by capturing it at home. The next week the same dog comes in to class and is happily flinging themselves on the floor in a lovely down.
Similarly- just like with people, different dogs learn more quickly than others. That doesn't mean they are stubborn. It just means that the trainer either hasn't found the right motivator, isn't managing the learning environment to facilitate learning, or needs to adjust other factors like distractions in order to help the dog learn. We have to adjust our training to fit the dog's particular temperament and make-up, but that never means that force is justified; it simply means that we need to tailor our training plan to find what that particular dog needs.
The dog who just says nope uh uh not interested or who keeps trying to work the system isn't stubborn, they just need to be taught that they can get what they want if they do what I want first and why it is worth their time to do so.
We humans may label a dog as stubborn because that is how we view it, but that isn't their thought process.
So, the first order of business with this dog was to socialize her. She was afraid of all humans and dogs. That part is OVER.
Now, any dog she made a connection with, she barks her head off when they go by. HELLO! FRIEND! I WANT TO COME SEE YOU RIGHT NOW!
Not everyone appreciates this. Not everyone wants to stop their walk to socialize everytime they see her. Often they just want to keep walking.
For a while, 'SHHHHH' worked. Not anymore. If, when I step out, a dog she knows is going by she goes nuts. I could take her back in and wait a minute, but that won't help once we are downstairs.
This poor dog. From fearful to HEY I WANNA BE FRIENDS PLEASE STOP FOR A CHAT!
This is not an obedient dog. Submissive, yes, but not obedient. She will not even 'sit' unless there is a treat in my hand.
The 'be a lady!' is from when she used to jump on me when I had her dinner in my hand. She knows the command 'sit', by voice and by silent hand signal. But won't obey unless there is a treat or food in my hand.
I have never encountered a dog that didn't want to learn things for sometimes treats and other times just praise.
She did learn to stop taking food OFF MY PLATE. And stopped stealing my milk. That one took a while. First she would spill it to drink off the floor and then she learned how to pick up up with her teeth and set it down to drink. So, she is smart.
But she is stubborn. That thing that goes around facebook where the dog is ignoring the human's 'silly furniture blockade' meant to keep off the couch? That is her.
I let her on the couch next to me on her own blanket. She will jump up there when I'm not prepped for her to and SHOVE ME OVER. She will not stay on her side of the bed. She doesn't seem to understand there is such a thing. Despite repeatedly saying 'down' and then back up to a specific spot on a blanket of hers.
Anyway, she doesn't know heel or any of that. She's 8.5 and never had any training until now.
PS what you are saying is what my neighbor was focused on yesterday when mine was barking like a lunatic. Keeping his dog focused on him and the walk and being non-reactive. It's embarrassing at this point.
People were pretty happy to help me socialize her, but now I think they'd like me to work on obedience.
Some dogs come "wired" to please, but not necessarily be obedient. All dogs can learn obedience. But she sounds smart, and smart dogs will figure out how to get us to do what they want if we aren't careful.
There is a training method that can work with those sorts of dogs well "Nothing In Life Is Free" or NILIF, which it sounds like you are kind of doing successfully already, given that she waits nicely for her food. You might want to look it up.
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It is the same with dogs. First you have to get their attention. Food is how you do that initially. Cut up chicken breast, liver, hamburger will all flip that switch in your dog's brain to whooooha, what do you want me to do for that? 
