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Someone could afford a decent apartment in a decent area in most of Southern California, if you go inland they can afford a house. Most Americans seem to have an odd notion of "basics", iphones, full-cable packages, etc are not basics. Someone in this area could afford "the basics" and still have a good $400~$500 to save each month. But the cost of living here is well above the national average, someone living in say a Texan city would likely have a good $700~$800 extra a month and it gets a lot cheaper than Texas too.
Making 41k, you would need your utilities and rent to come to less then $1000 to even dream of putting away $500 a month.
You want to know how I know that? Because I make a little over 37k, and I put away $400-$500 a month, and my rent and utilities together average about $1000. I dont have cable, I dont eat out, I hardly buy anything I dont need. I dont have an iphone, I do have a cell phone, but its the lowest end package you can get, and I dont have a home phone. Also, I dont have a car payment, or health insurance. I do have cable internet, but the cheapest one you can get. I spend about 500-600 dollars a month on everything else, food/household supplies, car insurance, internet, phone
Id say, a car payment and health insurance could easily eat up most of that $500. Good thing I dont pay anything for either.
Then again, I guess transportation other then your feet and healthcare shouldnt be an expectation of any American citizen.
Where the heck are you getting your data? The median sales price for a house in Orlando is around $100 K. Even the nicer neighborhoods are in the $160-200 K range
A $40 K salary is VERY doable in Orlando. The general rule of thumb is that you can afford a house that is 4-5x your salary. With mortgage rates as low as they are now, it's probably even higher than that.
I got the data from this site, which I guess doesnt match the current status of Orlando, assuming this data you post is true.
That's like $2710 after taxes and medical coverage here!
I pay $925 for mortgage/prop tax/insurance on a brand new $136K house. My electric is around $70/month and water/trash is $35/month. Phone/TV/internet is $130/month. Car insurance is $58/month and motorcycle insurance is $6/month. I spend about $40/month on gasoline.
And that is about it. If I made $41K/year (I actually make around $65K/year and bring home $4000/month) all of the above would leave me with around $1446/month for food, short term savings, retirement, buying things, and entertainment. Granted, I have no debt, no car payment, no kids, etc.
But am I such an outlier that $41K would be "hardly livable" for "most of the country" while it's more than enough here? My salary is pretty typical amongst people I know in my age range. I just don't see that we're suffering through some kind of horrible down-waging.
Wow, really, because, federal taxes due alone on 41k $6,444, which would come to $34,556 a year, or $2879.67, which leaves you about $100 after you also take out the 60.71 a month for payroll taxes, for healthcare (out of 3 places I worked, only 1 was that cheap, and they are free).
We can just ignore for a second that there are no state income taxes in Texas, and that you drive about 5 miles a month (or you are driving the motorcycle everywhere, which is not feasible for everybody), your electric bill is $30 lower then the average electric bill across the US, and about half of the average Texas utility bill ESR - Table 5. Average Monthly Bill by Census Division, and State,
Why dont we take, say, somebody living in.....Cleveland, OH. We will just assume they are paying the same housing costs.
Lets see
$2606.68 after just taxes. Thats not including insurance. Lets say they pay $150 a month for health insurance.
-100 probably reasonable for waste and water combined
1206.84
-130 Phone TV Internet
1076.84
-100 gasoline for a vehicle other then a motorcycle
976.84
That is for food, savings, debt, car payments, health insurance in excess of $130, medical copayments, household supplies and medicine, car repairs, clothes, and a shred of entertainment.
Yeah, if nothing absolutely went wrong, and you didnt have a car payment or student loans, yeah, you might be able to put away $500-$600 of that.
I got the data from this site, which I guess doesnt match the current status of Orlando, assuming this data you post is true.
It's definitely true. Orlando property values have plummeted. I kid you not, there are condos for $10-30 K, although not necessarily in the most desirable areas. You can definitely find a modest SFH in a safe neighboorhood in the $150 K range.
Wow, really, because, federal taxes due alone on 41k $6,444, which would come to $34,556 a year, or $2879.67, which leaves you about $100 after you also take out the 60.71 a month for payroll taxes, for healthcare (out of 3 places I worked, only 1 was that cheap, and they are free).
Oh you did it now.
It's $39/month for health coverage for a single person where I work and live. That leaves $40,532 to be taxed at 7.65% for SS and Medicare or -$3101. Standard deduction and 1x exemption ($9350) makes taxable income = $31,182. Income tax on that is -$4259 (2010 rates). So subtract $3101 and $4259 from $40,532 and you get $33,172. That's $2764/month, so a little higher than I said.
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Originally Posted by Randomdude
We can just ignore for a second that there are no state income taxes in Texas...
Okay...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude
...and that you drive about 5 miles a month (or you are driving the motorcycle everywhere, which is not feasible for everybody)...
Hehe. I commute on the motorcycle about 15 days of the month. Round trip commute is 16 miles. Bike gets 63 MPG. So about 3.8 gallons x $2.60 = we'll say $10. Car gets 24 MPG, 80 miles/month for commuting is 3.3 gallons x $2.90 (premium required) = we'll say another $10. Factor in some more mileage for groceries (1.1 miles away but also on the way home), Lowes (2.4 miles away), and a few incidentals. It's probably well below $40/month for *necessary travel,* maybe $25/month? I also spend another $15/month on joyriding on the bike, and I'd guess $15-$20/month on entertainment travel in the car, but those are not fixed expenses, they are part of discretionary income/entertainment. Also, I lament the fact that so many people think two-wheeled travel is not feasible. It's fun, efficient, and invigorating, and much of the world outside the US understands bikes and scooters are often better commuters than cars or trucks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude
...your electric bill is $30 lower then the average electric bill across the US, and about half of the average Texas utility bill...
I don't do anything special. Just make efficient choices. I am single though. House has Icynene spray foam insulation, which helps a lot I think. I leave at 6:30 in the morning and it's 72 in here, leave the AC off all day, come home at 4:30 and it's only 78, and this is with mid 90s for the outside temp. As far as water, I don't water very often (grass is fine) and tend to be pretty efficient with the water I guess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude
Why dont we take, say, somebody living in.....Cleveland, OH.
Poor Cavs fans...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude
$2606.68 after just taxes.
Where did you get that? Is that after Ohio income tax? I already calculated federal tax burden above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude
Lets say they pay $150 a month for health insurance.
Is it employee-sponsored? Are we still talking about a single person in good health or a couple or + dependents? At four times what I pay, that just seems very high.
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Originally Posted by Randomdude
-91.50 for electricity
Okay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude
-133.34 average ohio car insurance policy
They should switch! $800 every six months is robbery. Does this hypothetical average person have more than one vehicle, or tickets/accidents? I should think getting it quite a bit lower would be possible. But I have USAA and a four-cylinder sporty car so who knows.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude
-100 probably reasonable for waste and water combined
Okay, you completely lost me here. My trash pickup (which I tried to opt out of but they wouldn't let me) and water combined bill is usually around $32/month, is this with huge amounts of watering or is water just way more expensive elsewhere??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude
-100 gasoline for a vehicle other then a motorcycle
Now is that whole $100/month necessary travel? If we're not allowing more efficient choices such as PT or two-wheeled or telecommuting, I guess $5/work day works out to a 20 mile one-way commute and some grocery trips in a 25 mpg/vehicle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomdude
That is for food, savings, debt, car payments, health insurance in excess of $130, medical copayments, household supplies and medicine, car repairs, clothes, and a shred of entertainment.
Before I bought my house, my apartment was $650/month, water $10, electric $60, and cable/internet/phone about $90. So there's $350/month in savings right there just not owning a house. Not having a car payment or debt beyond the mortgage is not something that's impossible to do. I suppose you could factor in my depreciation expense as a monthly since I bought a brand new car a couple of years ago, but paid it off after five months. It will be twelve years old when it hits 50,000 miles, so don't anticipate repairs, but I guess you could factor in oil changes and new tires. All work on the bike is done by me. Our theoretical average person is single and in good health, no? How much is spent on clothes for a grown person? I guess I'd consider anything spent there to be an entertainment expense since I have amassed like 25 pairs of pants, 30 shirts, 40 tees, 10 pairs of shoes, etc. Should last a good long while.
I guess my point is twofold: A) I'M NOT SPECIAL! I'm not particularly frugal or anything and I have fun. And B) I don't make $41K, I make probably around $65K for 2010 and again that is nothing special (I'll probably net several thousand in investment income but I'm not counting that). I know a schoolteacher and an idiot nurse who are around my age and make more than me. Granted, they both have two kids each, but they also have husbands which means household-wise they're bringing in double what I do. I know people in my profession who've been doing it half as long making more than me. I know there are threads floating around about how "Texas is the best" and whatever, but is it really that much of a difference?
Again, I fail to see this degenerative down-waging of America. But hey I could get fired the second I walk in the door tomorrow or creamed by an SUV driver or stricken with cancer or my house could burn down...
Making 41k, you would need your utilities and rent to come to less then $1000 to even dream of putting away $500 a month.
You want to know how I know that? Because I make a little over 37k, and I put away $400-$500 a month, and my rent and utilities together average about $1000. I dont have cable, I dont eat out, I hardly buy anything I dont need. I dont have an iphone, I do have a cell phone, but its the lowest end package you can get, and I dont have a home phone. Also, I dont have a car payment, or health insurance. I do have cable internet, but the cheapest one you can get. I spend about 500-600 dollars a month on everything else, food/household supplies, car insurance, internet, phone
Id say, a car payment and health insurance could easily eat up most of that $500. Good thing I dont pay anything for either.
Then again, I guess transportation other then your feet and healthcare shouldnt be an expectation of any American citizen.
It is all a matter of how frugal you are. I only make $20,000 a year and have $500-$600 a month left over each month. I also have a car (no payment), car insurance, digital HD cable, internet, etc. I achieved this by cutting my living expenses to the bone. I only pay $400 a month for rent, and that includes all utilities (including cable and internet).
I think that really depends. What I see is different jbs become lless or more valued really. Many manufacturing that are employer trained have not risen in pay scale while other jobs have continued to rise and many surpassig those in manufacturing as a example.Then there is the numbers of some jobs not in demand much and too many chasing those jobs.Pure labor is npot mcuh in demand as eqauipment and automation elminates many of them.Also many i the developing world can do them and have the facities to dso them now when they didn't in the past.
It's definitely true. Orlando property values have plummeted. I kid you not, there are condos for $10-30 K, although not necessarily in the most desirable areas.
Sounds like Las Vegas. I live in a rather respectable, inner city townhouse complex where you can snap up a 1300SF unit now for $25-30k (I paid $72k for my unit back in 1996).
And if the property values fall like this in the rest of the country, then even with a low-wage job, you can still be a homeowner.
Some areas of the country where there's powerful, controlling Nimby's, it may not happen there. Those anti-development, selfish Nimby's have it all figured out: defeat any new housing proposal for their inner city neighborhood to maintain their housing prices.
Those anti-development, selfish Nimby's have it all figured out: defeat any new housing proposal for their inner city neighborhood to maintain their housing prices.
Sometimes, those housing proposals create more expensive properties, forcing people out
Making 41k, you would need your utilities and rent to come to less then $1000 to even dream of putting away $500 a month.
Not really, $41k would be around $2,900/month after tax here. I pay the following for basics:
$80........Auto Insurance
$150......Gas/amortized auto repairs.
$50........Cell phone
$60........Internet and basic cable.
$50........Average for electricity.
$400......Food
$100......Misc junk
So that is $890, so I could afford a rent of around $1,500 and still save $500/month. I'm self-employed so I don't get benefits, but when I worked I paid around $70/month for my health benefits. Now I pay around $300/month ($100 in premiums and around $200 in HSA contributions).
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It's $39/month for health coverage for a single person where I work and live. That leaves $40,532 to be taxed at 7.65% for SS and Medicare or -$3101. Standard deduction and 1x exemption ($9350) makes taxable income = $31,182. Income tax on that is -$4259 (2010 rates). So subtract $3101 and $4259 from $40,532 and you get $33,172. That's $2764/month, so a little higher than I said.
I commute on the motorcycle about 15 days of the month. Round trip commute is 16 miles. Bike gets 63 MPG. So about 3.8 gallons x $2.60 = we'll say $10. Car gets 24 MPG, 80 miles/month for commuting is 3.3 gallons x $2.90 (premium required) = we'll say another $10. Factor in some more mileage for groceries (1.1 miles away but also on the way home), Lowes (2.4 miles away), and a few incidentals. It's probably well below $40/month for *necessary travel,* maybe $25/month? I also spend another $15/month on joyriding on the bike, and I'd guess $15-$20/month on entertainment travel in the car, but those are not fixed expenses, they are part of discretionary income/entertainment. Also, I lament the fact that so many people think two-wheeled travel is not feasible. It's fun, efficient, and invigorating, and much of the world outside the US understands bikes and scooters are often better commuters than cars or trucks.
