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I find these claims to be from traditionalist excuse, prone to wage-slavery and other unsightly mishaps mostly by the guy or girl who wants their mega-house floor-washed and steam scrubbed with hand-maids. Those who don't want the minimum-wage increase are probably CEO's or some small business that can't adapt, or don't want to.
I find it quit humorous that you linked a story that basically proved the OPs neighbor largely correct while trying to set him straight. By the way...that is ironic.
Wage slavery is having to pay the outrageous taxes I pay to fund way too much government waste and corruption.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACollegeStudent
If the wage goes up, yes there is a % price increase but on the other hand you get more customers because they can afford to spend to buy the product in the first place. NY just went up to $15 not too long ago.
This doesn't even make sense. If this was even remotely true then companies would be falling over themselves giving people raises so they could raise prices and get more customers. lol.
The truth is companies look very closely at their total payroll. They will first try to maintain the same payroll despite paying people more. They will fire some people and divide their work out to other workers. Automation becomes more cost effective so they buy a little more of that. Then when they still can't make their old payroll total, they raise prices, cut benefits etc to get there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACollegeStudent
If you keep cutting back and being cheap then your going to get less customers, then the customers cut back, etc. What many CEO's seem to forget is that their workers are also, like customers depending on situation.
I am so glad you got it all figured out enough to lecture CEO's on what they need to be doing. How many companies have you ran?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACollegeStudent
If you keep bleeding them out, you can possibly loose out. . I find it ironic that California and NY are and were the first ones to raise minimum, yet being one of the more expensive states, broadly speaking, to live in.
I don't think that word means what you think it means.
A little history about minimum wage.
Minimum wage was first used to keep southern construction companies from hiring black workers. They used it to protect white workers. If a company had to pay a black guy the same as a white guy then they were gonna hire a white.
Minimum wage, like most beloved liberal ideas, has the exact opposite result than its stated intention. It hurts the poorest people the most. People get fired, have their hours cut and the ones that do see the raise get to pay more for...well everything.
Yes, there is a scientific logic in it, because the MW a society can sustain is not based on costs, but median wages. This makes sense if you compare poor countries and rich countries. A poor country may cost half as much as a rich country, but their wages are 1/4.
If they try to have a MW that is half of a western country, then it will lead to a massive failure. It will become too high and cause unemployment.
No there is no real building boom in Portland, in fact housing perimits collapsed after the crisis and is still too low compared to population increase.
Most of the people on benefits are not full time workers. Hence a MW will not support the government. While low wage workers do get some support, to for instance health care, other countries provide free health care.
You are picking the wrong solution, minimum wage is just a floor on how much employers need to pay MW workers, it is not a subsidy. You are not actually giving anything to low wage workers, you are just hoping that a higher MW will benefit them. I do not think it will, it will make it much harder for them to find work, especially full time work.
If you really want to help them, how about reducing social security taxes for the poor?
Picking the "wrong" solution: There is NO general systemic solution in raising the min wage, with the exception of that person who gets the money. The "solution" to low wages lies in the business realities relative to profit and the need for labor. When the lowest wages are prohibitive to the pursuit of a sustaining profit then the business is not sustainable, just as a too low wage is not sustainable for the person living in the economic reality of today's modern society. You seem to be unduly concerned with the sustainability of business to the detriment of those who can't sustain themselves on low wages, but those business owners who do pay sustaining wages seem to be doing alright and aren't concerned about the min wage rise.
When wages are too low the person receiving those wages most often becomes eligible for government aid, that's your dollars going to the aid of----Presto--not the worker, but the business owner who pays at that level. Your dismissal of this reality being that those on assistance aren't working full time ignores the fact of part time employment being the norm in many employment schemes. Yes, we do subsidize the low wage construct, and some here have stated that this is only fair, their view of things includes this notion of allowing government to help, but never the sacred business owner.
Min wage floors are necessary for the overall construct of labor compensation determination, this has been established by our laws, as determined by our representative government. You are simply one more person in the nation that thinks the second guessing of our legal agreements with regard to labor is needing an overhaul, your assessment of the latest round of wage hike possibilities as a catastrophic potential is nothing more than posturing for the sake of provoking fear.
Your claims of a coming unemployment debacle should the min wage rise totally ignores the fact of our recent recession and resulting huge unemployment numbers having little to do with labor compensation, no, it was the work of none other than the banking institutions and our government allowances that caused such a terrible suffering, now that IS something we should be worried about, not the minimum wage.
On Portland's building boom and the resulting rent crisis: This from a 20125 news piece--
"Hey Big Spender!
Portland has got some apartment deals for you.
A historic multi-family construction boom has added more than 11,000 new apartments to the local market since 2013. Paradoxically, the boom has done little to ease the housing shortage or slow a 40 percent run-up in rents since 2010 to more than $1,200 a month".
I just returned from a trip to Seattle and the building there is absolutely booming in the construction of urban housing, sky cranes everywhere, piles of condos and apartments are popping up in large numbers, BUT, not for low wage earners, no, the housing industry sees little to be had from catering to those who earn less than "market rate" apartment living will allow. And in this reality lies those who fear the huge sum of fifteen whole dollars an hour going to those on the bottom rungs of Seattle's laboring class. Maybe you could expand on your points by telling us what YOU make, I think you are a long way from the reality of the low wage worker.
Picking the "wrong" solution: There is NO general systemic solution in raising the min wage, with the exception of that person who gets the money. The "solution" to low wages lies in the business realities relative to profit and the need for labor. When the lowest wages are prohibitive to the pursuit of a sustaining profit then the business is not sustainable, just as a too low wage is not sustainable for the person living in the economic reality of today's modern society. You seem to be unduly concerned with the sustainability of business to the detriment of those who can't sustain themselves on low wages, but those business owners who do pay sustaining wages seem to be doing alright and aren't concerned about the min wage rise.
When wages are too low the person receiving those wages most often becomes eligible for government aid, that's your dollars going to the aid of----Presto--not the worker, but the business owner who pays at that level. Your dismissal of this reality being that those on assistance aren't working full time ignores the fact of part time employment being the norm in many employment schemes. Yes, we do subsidize the low wage construct, and some here have stated that this is only fair, their view of things includes this notion of allowing government to help, but never the sacred business owner.
Min wage floors are necessary for the overall construct of labor compensation determination, this has been established by our laws, as determined by our representative government. You are simply one more person in the nation that thinks the second guessing of our legal agreements with regard to labor is needing an overhaul, your assessment of the latest round of wage hike possibilities as a catastrophic potential is nothing more than posturing for the sake of provoking fear.
Your claims of a coming unemployment debacle should the min wage rise totally ignores the fact of our recent recession and resulting huge unemployment numbers having little to do with labor compensation, no, it was the work of none other than the banking institutions and our government allowances that caused such a terrible suffering, now that IS something we should be worried about, not the minimum wage.
On Portland's building boom and the resulting rent crisis: This from a 20125 news piece--
"Hey Big Spender!
Portland has got some apartment deals for you.
A historic multi-family construction boom has added more than 11,000 new apartments to the local market since 2013. Paradoxically, the boom has done little to ease the housing shortage or slow a 40 percent run-up in rents since 2010 to more than $1,200 a month".
I just returned from a trip to Seattle and the building there is absolutely booming in the construction of urban housing, sky cranes everywhere, piles of condos and apartments are popping up in large numbers, BUT, not for low wage earners, no, the housing industry sees little to be had from catering to those who earn less than "market rate" apartment living will allow. And in this reality lies those who fear the huge sum of fifteen whole dollars an hour going to those on the bottom rungs of Seattle's laboring class. Maybe you could expand on your points by telling us what YOU make, I think you are a long way from the reality of the low wage worker.
I'm fascinated by the utter lack of market response (new construction affordable to low wage workers) toward the working class. Blatant market failure and conservatives have nothing to say or propose.
...
This doesn't even make sense. If this was even remotely true then companies would be falling over themselves giving people raises so they could raise prices and get more customers. lol. ...
I suspect that the store down the road doubling wages paid to workets would neither have much effect on the labour market nor the purchasing power of it's customers. You're applying macro economic concepts to a micro economic theoretical. It takes purchasing power increases on the scale of millions of workers to affect demand, this isn't something single firms can affect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanokie
...I am so glad you got it all figured out enough to lecture CEO's on what they need to be doing. How many companies have you ran?...
Not to pick on you, but what does this add to your argument?
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanokie
...A little history about minimum wage.
Minimum wage was first used to keep southern construction companies from hiring black workers. They used it to protect white workers. If a company had to pay a black guy the same as a white guy then they were gonna hire a white.
Minimum wage, like most beloved liberal ideas, has the exact opposite result than its stated intention. It hurts the poorest people the most. People get fired, have their hours cut and the ones that do see the raise get to pay more for...well everything...
How is this relevant to the current merits of an increased minimum wage? You haven't explained what the connections between racist state law and hiring practices of the 1920's and the negative outcomes of a $15 minimum wage you've said will happen are.
I'm fascinated by the utter lack of market response (new construction affordable to low wage workers) toward the working class. Blatant market failure and conservatives have nothing to say or propose.
New construction affordable to low wage workers is an oxymoron in popular and expensive areas.
And it's unnecessary, since the "problem" is self correcting. If the COL is too high for the amount you make, you can either get a better job or move. If a lot of low skill workers move, then employers will be forced to pay more, and landlords will be forced to lower rents. Naturally.
The rest of us should not be forced to subsidize your desire to live in a place you can't afford.
New construction affordable to low wage workers is an oxymoron in popular and expensive areas.
And it's unnecessary, since the "problem" is self correcting. If the COL is too high for the amount you make, you can either get a better job or move. If a lot of low skill workers move, then employers will be forced to pay more, and landlords will be forced to lower rents. Naturally.
The rest of us should not be forced to subsidize your desire to live in a place you can't afford.
Not under sufficiently higher density and sufficiently lower regulation - therein lies the rub.
Incumbent residents of a community are already there and should not "have" to move elsewhere. California homeowners established that precedent when they passed Prop 13, as did numerous California communities when they adopted rent control.
Incumbent residents of a community are already there and should not "have" to move elsewhere.
The way an incumbent resident avoids having to move is to buy a place to live, when they *can* afford it. If that doesn't work for you, just move and quit complaining. It's a big country and there are loads of places where you can afford to live. We don't need to subsidize you so you can live in the most expensive place!
The key is to put your self in a position where it doesn't matter to you. That's all on you! Wife's a nurse and I'm an ER doc. I could not care less if minimum wage goes up outside of less broke people trying to rob me or raise my taxes!
The way an incumbent resident avoids having to move is to buy a place to live, when they *can* afford it. If that doesn't work for you, just move and quit complaining. It's a big country and there are loads of places where you can afford to live. We don't need to subsidize you so you can live in the most expensive place!
Ah, but Prop 13 was based on the premise that homeowners were STILL getting priced out by newcomers who caused their assessments to necessarily skyrocket.
Rent control is protectionism for renters just like Prop 13 is protectionism for homeowners.
Do quantities matter here? When the MW goes up you'd expect an inflation increase depending how much it is and how many people are effected.
No you wouldn't. When the price of any good or service goes up, such as minimum wage or salt or gasoline or bread, it is not inflation. It is just an increase in that specific item. Some people/businesses will adapt by consuming less or consuming a substitute.
Inflation is an increase in the general price level of all goods & services.
Quote:
Originally Posted by engineman
Raise the minimum wage, cost of doing business goes up, prices are raised to compensate. The result is called inflation.
No, that is not inflation. That is price and quantity adjustments due to exogenous shifts (an increase in the minimum wage law). That does not create inflation - yes, there will be adjustments, but it does not cause an increase in the general price level.
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