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It's the fact that they made a threat. It is wrong. They need to be punished NOW (and severely) so they will understand that they cannot get away with that type of behavior in the "real" world. What is their little Facebook plan said, "Slap a Cop Day"?
What if they had just said they were going to slap their teacher to one of their friends? Then there would be no legal action to take at all since it is not illegal to just say you are going to do something. This is also not a conspiracy until some sort of further action is taken, which is also not the case here.
And if their facebook group suggested they "Slap a Cop" and they did nothing then its a non-issue, IF they actually did it, it is assault. But the standard for assault is vastly different for children than it is for adults.
People keep exaggerating the actions here so lets look at the other extreme, if a child says "I can't believe my mom grounded me, I want to slap her" should the teacher than call the police on the child and have them arrested or should the teacher contact the counselors and parents to discuss the issue?
And one more time, in the real world, it is absolutely okay to say "I hate my boss, I would like to kick his ass" as evidenced by even 30 mins at any bar during happy hour, any given day in a teachers' lounge or facebook statuses around the world.
Yes, these kids need real consequences but the idea that these kids should face expulsion, community service, jail time, etc because they made comments adults make all the time, just in the wrong venue is ridiculous.
What if they had just said they were going to slap their teacher to one of their friends? Then there would be no legal action to take at all since it is not illegal to just say you are going to do something. This is also not a conspiracy until some sort of further action is taken, which is also not the case here.
And if their facebook group suggested they "Slap a Cop" and they did nothing then its a non-issue, IF they actually did it, it is assault. But the standard for assault is vastly different for children than it is for adults.
People keep exaggerating the actions here so lets look at the other extreme, if a child says "I can't believe my mom grounded me, I want to slap her" should the teacher than call the police on the child and have them arrested or should the teacher contact the counselors and parents to discuss the issue?
And one more time, in the real world, it is absolutely okay to say "I hate my boss, I would like to kick his ass" as evidenced by even 30 mins at any bar during happy hour, any given day in a teachers' lounge or facebook statuses around the world.
Yes, these kids need real consequences but the idea that these kids should face expulsion, community service, jail time, etc because they made comments adults make all the time, just in the wrong venue is ridiculous.
This would be a non-issue if parents would teach their children that it is not ok to say things like that to begin with.
The fact that it was put in writing makes it a legal issue. I don't care how old they are.
Here's the other problem I have with this situation- Why can't teachers be respected enough to not have this type of threat taken seriously?
A threat is illegal. Children in middle school DO know right from wrong. If for some reason they don't, like a disorder of some kind, then they shouldn't be in regular school. It is getting ridiculous that kids are running the schools. They should be held accountable for their actions. How is it better that they said attack not kill? Can't people be seriously, even fatally injured in an attack? If they had attacked the teachers, I would hope the teachers would have made sure they were punished by law enforcement, not just by the school system. School systems are afraid of parents; law enforcement officers are not.
The idea that children are as accountable for their actions as adults is bizarre to me. The idea that teaching children right from wrong is a one and done activity is also perplexing. Children need to be taught any skill (including the most important one good judgement) over and over again, so the idea that the first time something like this happens we throw them out is against everything I know both as a parent and a teacher.
I think the real problem in society isn't that children aren't punished its that they are not CONSISTENTLY punished in a reasonable manner for things they have already been taught. For example cell phones are a reality in high schools, but instead of teaching children the appropriate use and non-use of them people make ridiculous rules (NO cell phones in schools) and then do not enforce them or worse enforce them unevenly. That is an example of teaching children that rules are not to be followed.
Same here, children need to be TAUGHT (which as we all know requires repetition, reinforcement, and assessment) how to safely and appropriately use technology. That teaching, again like all teaching, will only be effective if it is done at school and supported by parental involvement as well.
But no, we as a society, wait until something is taken to an absolutely dangerous level before we react at all, then either the hammer comes down and lives are ruined or there is a "slap on the wrist". No wonder these things keep happening.
You are a professional in child development and you think 11 and 12 yr olds have the ability to think abstractly the same as adults?
But no, we as a society, wait until something is taken to an absolutely dangerous level before we react at all, then either the hammer comes down and lives are ruined or there is a "slap on the wrist". No wonder these things keep happening.
Isn't this exactly what is being advocated? NO PUNISHMENT and lets all circle up and sing CUME BY YA?? Technology has NOTHING to do with the threats.
They know truth from a lie and right from wrong. They also know good from bad and responsibilty from patronization.
They know how to manipulate.
Can they do calculus and rocket science? NO
Can they create a plan to harm others and understand potential consequences? YES
They understand that doing good has REWARDS and doing bad has PUNISHMENTS...
Isn't this exactly what is being advocated? NO PUNISHMENT and lets all circle up and sing CUME BY YA?? Technology has NOTHING to do with the threats.
That is not what I have advocated at all. I think the school giving week long out of school suspensions is appropriate for what the school should do. Whatever avenues the police/courts choose to follow are separate from that.
Quote:
They know truth from a lie and right from wrong. They also know good from bad and responsibilty from patronization.
They know how to manipulate.
Can they do calculus and rocket science? NO
Can they create a plan to harm others and understand potential consequences? YES
They understand that doing good has REWARDS and doing bad has PUNISHMENTS...
If they know all of that, then do you think a child should be held to the same accountability as adults?
When a child plays with a gun that has been left out and accidentally shoots someone should they go to jail for manslaughter?
If they know all of those things you put above why do we treat children differently in the legal system? Why do they face lesser sentences? Why do they go to different detention centers? Why can't children enter into legal contracts?
If they know "right from wrong" and understand consequences and punishment what is the difference between adults and children?
And FYI, I know many 12 yo who can do calculus and very few who truly have the ability to stop what they are doing and examine the possibilities of their actions. Odd that someone who claims to know so much about child development and psychology is confusing intelligence and development.
What if they had just said they were going to slap their teacher to one of their friends? Then there would be no legal action to take at all since it is not illegal to just say you are going to do something. This is also not a conspiracy until some sort of further action is taken, which is also not the case here.
And if their facebook group suggested they "Slap a Cop" and they did nothing then its a non-issue, IF they actually did it, it is assault. But the standard for assault is vastly different for children than it is for adults.
People keep exaggerating the actions here so lets look at the other extreme, if a child says "I can't believe my mom grounded me, I want to slap her" should the teacher than call the police on the child and have them arrested or should the teacher contact the counselors and parents to discuss the issue?
And one more time, in the real world, it is absolutely okay to say "I hate my boss, I would like to kick his ass" as evidenced by even 30 mins at any bar during happy hour, any given day in a teachers' lounge or facebook statuses around the world.
Yes, these kids need real consequences but the idea that these kids should face expulsion, community service, jail time, etc because they made comments adults make all the time, just in the wrong venue is ridiculous.
Actually, depending on the company, if an employee posted something like this on Facebook, it could be considered under the category of "workplace threat" at worst and "harrassment" at the least. Many a person has lost their job over this.
That is not what I have advocated at all. I think the school giving week long out of school suspensions is appropriate for what the school should do. Whatever avenues the police/courts choose to follow are separate from that.
If they know all of that, then do you think a child should be held to the same accountability as adults?
When a child plays with a gun that has been left out and accidentally shoots someone should they go to jail for manslaughter?
If they know all of those things you put above why do we treat children differently in the legal system? Why do they face lesser sentences? Why do they go to different detention centers? Why can't children enter into legal contracts?
If they know "right from wrong" and understand consequences and punishment what is the difference between adults and children?
And FYI, I know many 12 yo who can do calculus and very few who truly have the ability to stop what they are doing and examine the possibilities of their actions. Odd that someone who claims to know so much about child development and psychology is confusing intelligence and development.
In some cases children are tried as adults. It depends on the severity of the crime. In Florida several years ago, two boys middle school age murdered their father. They were tried as adults. They planned the crime, executed it, and then showed no remorse. Yes, they knew what they were doing was wrong. If a 12 year old threatened me, I would follow through with the authorities. I wouldn't care what the school system did. I would press charges. Adolescents, which is what they are, need to learn that there are consequences for their actions. If they do not, what will they do next. A short suspension just gives them some vacation time from school.
As a teacher (with 20+ years experience, primarily at high school level) I do not think a 3-5 day suspension is enough of a punishment/deterrent for this situation. These girls need to be sent to an alternative school for the remainder of the year, and the reasons why noted in their files, especially if they have been in trouble before (which I suspect for some of them is very likely). In my school district students who fight generally get suspended up to 10 days. Why would planning something like this not be taken more seriously? What if it were directed toward another student and nothing other than the suspension was the punishment, then afterward the one targeted was actually attacked? Even though this wasn't actually acted upon, the fact remains that it was planned, discussed, and others were invited to participate, as well as being put in writing. The real question is also why were they so angry at teachers to even remotely think this up? Also, students at this age ARE old enough to know consequences for their actions; teaching right from wrong begins LONG before middle school age!! I sincerely hope the school does more than a mere suspension for this action... these girls need to discuss WHY they planned this and WHY they would feel such an activity was even remotely appropriate, whether directed toward a student or a teacher. I agree with the poster who was talking about "wanting out of teaching" - activities like this where the "punishment" really won't have much of an impact continue to demoralize those of us who do care about kids, society, and the future beyond a paycheck. Sorry, but these girls are being done NO favors in the long term with such a lenient punishment being administered for this now.
This is similar to what ended up driving my high school teacher father into retirement earlier than he'd planned. He was assaulted by a student in a hallway, got massive pressure from administration to sweep everything under the rug because it 'looked bad' when there was that kind of police report generated from the school, and they originally wanted a two week suspension and no guarantee that the student wouldn't be assigned to one of Dad's classes down the road.
So Dad went to his union rep from that evil nasty teachers' union, who got people in place to politely explain to administration that letting the student remain in school constituted an inappropriate work environment under the terms of the collective bargaining agreement, that Dad did indeed want to press charges against the kid, and maybe it would be good to just go ahead and expel the kid now for alternative placement rather than waiting for some sort of official legal action on things.
That event was the last straw for him in a saga of what used to be a quite good urban school and district that was disintegrating from utterly awful management and leadership. When they offered early retirement buyouts that spring, he was gone.
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