Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
While it is clear that a significant part of the problem can be attributed to individual families who simply fail to value education, a closer inspection of the curricula used (per se) and the standard academic expectations will also point to major flaws in the system itself.
.
How do you account for the people who go to public school and still do very well in life and in the global market? I don't think they are aberrations.
And I don't believe they are occurring at a lower rate than maybe 20 or 30 years ago. I think the nerds will continue to be the nerds and suck the marrow out of their schooling experience and go on to do great things.
The fact that we have a growing portion of the population that puts absolutely no cultural commitment to education is a much greater contributor to the problem than the actual material being presented in schools. I would believe the schools are crappy if you can show me every student has mastered the material they were able to deliver...then I would say, "Clearly we are deficient here."
You can't convince me that spending money in schools is the answer when I have past and current relatives who live and school in countries where they spend PENNIES on our dollar for education and they can all kick our butts at every grade level.
We spend more money per student than almost every country in the world...the water ain't the problem; it's the horse.
How do you account for the people who go to public school and still do very well in life and in the global market? I don't think they are aberrations.
And I don't believe they are occurring at a lower rate than maybe 20 or 30 years ago. I think the nerds will continue to be the nerds and suck the marrow out of their schooling experience and go on to do great things.
The fact that we have a growing portion of the population that puts absolutely no cultural commitment to education is a much greater contributor to the problem than the actual material being presented in schools. I would believe the schools are crappy if you can show me every student has mastered the material they were able to deliver...then I would say, "Clearly we are deficient here."
You can't convince me that spending money in schools is the answer when I have past and current relatives who live and school in countries where they spend PENNIES on our dollar for education and they can all kick our butts at every grade level.
We spend more money per student than almost every country in the world...the water ain't the problem; it's the horse.
I agree for the most part. I am certainly not arguing for more money to be thrown at schools. In fact, I would go so far to suggest the unorthodoxy that most would probably benefit from less!
The best kind of education is done with books, pen and paper. All very cheap when public libraries are taken into account.
I am arguing for more rigorous, academically challenging curricula, for teaching less but better materials in terms of quality, for teaching at a slower pace yet more in-depth and more judiciously, and for higher overall expectations, outside of testing and test scores.
Your observation on having a cultural commitment to education is spot on.
I am simply a huge advocate of classical education for education's sake which is NOT what is done in public schools today. (The topic of an entirely different thread could be ..."should it be?").
Also, the relatively small percentage of "nerds" you were talking about will rise above and end up "learned" in any educational system. That is simply because those are people born with a calling for learning and they have scholarly talents. Just like Maradona ended up an amazing soccer player without his mother religiously signing him up for 'soccer'.
He just had a calling in the streets and he was killing that ball with soccer buddies, without coach next to him. Same with the nerds.
Otherwise....what can I say...preaching to the choir.
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary
Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4
The same is true of those with bad experiences, don't you think?
My friends and I had an excellent experience at our high school, and many of them are currently world class in their professions.
I'm tired of people dogging a system that is just as much about what you put in as what you get out.
same could be said either way. in the end, there are good experiences and there are bad ones. some people put in 100% and end up with crap and some people put in 50% and get a pass
Quote:
Originally Posted by samusaran253
School was only easy for me because I am extremely intelligent. But for your average person, it is hard.
well, I must say, for a self-professed "extremely intelligent" person, this comment is just pure idiocy.
so the whole premise of this thread you created is that, since you went to a perfect school and are "extremely intelligent", America's education system is fine? seriously, is this your premise? can you be that naive?
I agree for the most part. I am certainly not arguing for more money to be thrown at schools. In fact, I would go so far to suggest the unorthodoxy that most would probably benefit from less!
The best kind of education is done with books, pen and paper. All very cheap when public libraries are taken into account.
I am arguing for more rigorous, academically challenging curricula, for teaching less but better materials in terms of quality, for teaching at a slower pace yet more in-depth and more judiciously, and for higher overall expectations, outside of testing and test scores.
Your observation on having a cultural commitment to education is spot on.
I am simply a huge advocate of classical education for education's sake which is NOT what is done in public schools today. (The topic of an entirely different thread could be ..."should it be?").
Also, the relatively small percentage of "nerds" you were talking about will rise above and end up "learned" in any educational system. That is simply because those are people born with a calling for learning and they have scholarly talents. Just like Maradona ended up an amazing soccer player without his mother religiously signing him up for 'soccer'.
He just had a calling in the streets and he was killing that ball with soccer buddies, without coach next to him. Same with the nerds.
I agree that a 'classical' education works the brain cells much more. What passes as curriculum now, IMHO, only serves to develop ADHD to me.
You know what I'd like to see? 20 somethings who know how to spell "Tuesday," "February," and "Orange" and actually know what number to assign a month (when they are dating a simple form) without having to stop and think about it.
I'd like to see a person who can accurately fill out a form without asking what is being asked of them. "Do I check this?" "What does this mean?" etc. etc.
I find it pathetic that my kids are able to type 2 letters into "google" and never have to actually know how to look up a word in a dictionary. When they type their reports, the computer corrects their spelling - not their own brain. They barely proof read anymore.
I get annoyed when they look at their math homework and say "Well, there isn't a little sign that has a calculator crossed out, so I CAN use one!" I think technology has made them very, very, lazy, and I grow very, very, tired of fighting with them to use their own brains (not that being tired of it deters me from doing so in the slightest however). Still, I'd like to have a little support from the school as far as getting them to think for themselves.
It strikes me as very sad that when my DD was 9, she had spelling words like "irrational" or "reiterate" (and actually spelled them correctly) yet, would spell "people" as "pepole" or 'taking" like 'takeing" since she forgot about dropping the 'e' before adding '-ing' when she was actually writing a story herself.
When she was in 2nd grade, I can remember she was required to spell "turquoise." At the time she spelled "very" like "verry."
Personally, I think it's ridiculous. Sure, we can make 3rd graders learn Algebra, or how to spell on a middle school level, but when I keep hearing about how 'dumb' our kids are, I have to say to myself "Ha! What the heck do we expect?"
I agree that a 'classical' education works the brain cells much more. What passes as curriculum now, IMHO, only serves to develop ADHD to me.
You know what I'd like to see? 20 somethings who know how to spell "Tuesday," "February," and "Orange" and actually know what number to assign a month (when they are dating a simple form) without having to stop and think about it.
I'd like to see a person who can accurately fill out a form without asking what is being asked of them. "Do I check this?" "What does this mean?" etc. etc.
I find it pathetic that my kids are able to type 2 letters into "google" and never have to actually know how to look up a word in a dictionary. When they type their reports, the computer corrects their spelling - not their own brain. They barely proof read anymore.
I get annoyed when they look at their math homework and say "Well, there isn't a little sign that has a calculator crossed out, so I CAN use one!" I think technology has made them very, very, lazy, and I grow very, very, tired of fighting with them to use their own brains (not that being tired of it deters me from doing so in the slightest however). Still, I'd like to have a little support from the school as far as getting them to think for themselves.
It strikes me as very sad that when my DD was 9, she had spelling words like "irrational" or "reiterate" (and actually spelled them correctly) yet, would spell "people" as "pepole" or 'taking" like 'takeing" since she forgot about dropping the 'e' before adding '-ing' when she was actually writing a story herself.
When she was in 2nd grade, I can remember she was required to spell "turquoise." At the time she spelled "very" like "verry."
Personally, I think it's ridiculous. Sure, we can make 3rd graders learn Algebra, or how to spell on a middle school level, but when I keep hearing about how 'dumb' our kids are, I have to say to myself "Ha! What the heck do we expect?"
Yes, that. Thanks.
But note how you will get some replies along the lines of "correct spelling is not important because it is not "creative", and all today's society needs
is "creativity", and all of tomorrow's jobs will be about "creativity"... blah-blah-bli-blah-blah-blah.
Never mind that to this day, the very best occupations are still those that involve a serious classical foundation in the beginning; never mind that all major inventors and creators in history began by studying the classic basics and were not above memorizing facts, spelling correctly, writing well, doing math drills, etc.
Somehow we will be OK leaving most youth dumb as a rock by the standards of classical education as long as each one of them, average Joe or not, will supposedly come up with some "amazing", "never-before-heard-of "creation" or "discovery" that will revolutionize the way we live. Nobody even questions whether such supposed "revolutions" would mean a better life for humanity.
I don't know why I have a feeling that whatever amazing "invention" texting ditz would be able to come up with - when she can't even spell Tuesday - would not be the kind of invention I would want to see in my lifetime.
I have to say that I don't think spelling is terribly important in the scheme of things. I know that my son who is a very successful chemical engineer is a terrible speller. His brain processes mathematics and science much better than it does anything with language. The best way to learn to spell though is to read and read and read.
I don't think that all we need is creativity, but I also think that spelling tests are not the way to learn to spell and that rote memorization of math facts often stops kids from understanding the actual concepts in math. Should kids learn the multiplication tables? Sure, it speeds up doing problems, but they need to understand what multiplication is before they memorize the facts.
Anecdotal data is qualitative data: it is truth. Individual truth is important.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliTerp07
I'm glad you had a good experience (I did too--I enjoyed school and was quite successful at it). That said, it's certainly not the case everywhere, and anecdata does not equal truth.
I know my multiplication tables but I'd rather use a calculator or a computer program.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053
I have to say that I don't think spelling is terribly important in the scheme of things. I know that my son who is a very successful chemical engineer is a terrible speller. His brain processes mathematics and science much better than it does anything with language. The best way to learn to spell though is to read and read and read.
I don't think that all we need is creativity, but I also think that spelling tests are not the way to learn to spell and that rote memorization of math facts often stops kids from understanding the actual concepts in math. Should kids learn the multiplication tables? Sure, it speeds up doing problems, but they need to understand what multiplication is before they memorize the facts.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
....
