Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I have no issues with your points. I think you exaggerate the situation to make it look helpless, rather than make your best good faith effort to do what you can within the parameters of the system.
Are kids less motivated than when I was in school? Yes they are. But as teachers we are still called to make an effort to reach kids. It is our professional responsibility to do this. You seem to think it is not.
Here are my two main bones of contention with what you have said:
1. I agree that students do learn from natural consequences. If the students fail to take advantage of my efforts to reach them, then they will succumb to those natural consequences. But I will do much more than simply "offer" them opportunities. I will meet with parents, and communicate with parents frequently. I will speak to the individual student on more than one occasion to see if I can connect with them on a personal level so that they will put forth better effort. As I stated earlier, most of these efforts will be for naught. But I go in knowing this and don't let it discourage me. Your disdain for these students is evident in your posts, and therefore it is hard for me to believe that you would put much effort into trying to reach them.
2. If you make the good-faith effort to reach students then you will not be held accountable for their failures. If you don't make the effort then you deserve to be held accountable for their failures. You seem to be missing the piece that being a teacher involves teaching ALL students. As I stated you will not reach all of them. No teacher does. But there are many teachers out there that get tremendous accolades for their efforts. They are not blamed for their students failures. The reason for this is that they can show that they are making that effort.
3. Ipods have ear buds. You can't just put them away. You won't look like a fool because the culture that is put in place early on will limit the number of occurrences. Trust me if there are students that see other students texting in class, then ALL students will be texting in class. If you let one you have to let the others.
AND I REPEAT...I am simply not playing a game I cannot win. All the students have to do is get the phone out of sight before I get into a position where I can actually SEE the phone and then lie about it. Then I look like a fool because I have to accept the lie because I did not actually SEE the cell phone being used.
You're not reading my posts.
What part of they pocket the phone BEFORE I SEE it and then lie about it do you not get?
AND I REPEAT...I am simply not playing a game I cannot win. All the students have to do is get the phone out of sight before I get into a position where I can actually SEE the phone and then lie about it. Then I look like a fool because I have to accept the lie because I did not actually SEE the cell phone being used.
You're not reading my posts.
What part of they pocket the phone BEFORE I SEE it and then lie about it do you not get?
I am reading your post. Not only did I read it by I responded to exactly the situation you describe. . . Let me do so again.
If they put the phone away I would ask to see it. If it's on, then it's mine. If it's in the front pocket of their jacket then it's mine. I did this all the time in my middle school classes. Like I said, some will be sneaky and get away with it. But to just allow students to blatantly text is certainly not the answer. You can win this game. You just choose to not try and win it.
I am reading your post. Not only did I read it by I responded to exactly the situation you describe. . . Let me do so again.
If they put the phone away I would ask to see it. If it's on, then it's mine. If it's in the front pocket of their jacket then it's mine. I did this all the time in my middle school classes. Like I said, some will be sneaky and get away with it. But to just allow students to blatantly text is certainly not the answer. You can win this game. You just choose to not try and win it.
Asking to see their phone is calling them a liar. I'd be the one in the principals office. All they have to do is press the off button as they slip the phone into their pocket anyway if there were a rule that phones couldn't be on. After Columbine, we're not allowed to tell them they can't have their phones on. They can't use them during class and they can't be heard during class (but I can never tell where I heard the phone ringing anyway so this one is moot too unless it keeps ringing so I can locate the offender) but they can have them on.
I have a rule that phones on the desk during tests so I can see them. Only about half of my students comply. When I ask the others, they tell me they don't have their phone on them. I know most of them are lying but there is nothing I can do other than watch the kids with no phone on their desk a little closer. Then again, there's nothing to stop them from bringing a dummy phone to put on the desk, is there?
As I said, I am not playing a game I cannot win. If they want to text instead of listen, what I can do is give them the grade they earned. If they don't learn this year that they need to pay attention to pass, they'll learn next year that they need to pay attention to pass.
Asking to see their phone is calling them a liar. I'd be the one in the principals office. All they have to do is press the off button as they slip the phone into their pocket anyway if there were a rule that phones couldn't be on. After Columbine, we're not allowed to tell them they can't have their phones on. They can't use them during class and they can't be heard during class (but I can never tell where I heard the phone ringing anyway so this one is moot too unless it keeps ringing so I can locate the offender) but they can have them on.
I have a rule that phones on the desk during tests so I can see them. Only about half of my students comply. When I ask the others, they tell me they don't have their phone on them. I know most of them are lying but there is nothing I can do other than watch the kids with no phone on their desk a little closer. Then again, there's nothing to stop them from bringing a dummy phone to put on the desk, is there?
As I said, I am not playing a game I cannot win. If they want to text instead of listen, what I can do is give them the grade they earned. If they don't learn this year that they need to pay attention to pass, they'll learn next year that they need to pay attention to pass.
Didn't you say earlier that if you asked them to put phones on the desk they would get stolen. Now you are saying that you tell them to put the phones on the desk during tests. That sounds like a contradiction.
How is asking to see someones phone calling them a liar. You haven't even asked them a question yet for them to lie.
Your school has some weird rules. I've never heard of a school telling you that you can't tell students to turn their phones off. I'd like to know where you teach so I NEVER apply at that school.
Didn't you say earlier that if you asked them to put phones on the desk they would get stolen. Now you are saying that you tell them to put the phones on the desk during tests. That sounds like a contradiction.
How is asking to see someones phone calling them a liar. You haven't even asked them a question yet for them to lie.
Your school has some weird rules. I've never heard of a school telling you that you can't tell students to turn their phones off. I'd like to know where you teach so I NEVER apply at that school.
I'm the one who said the phones would get stolen. Our school is in a high-crime area where thievery is unfortunately very common. You probably wouldn't want to apply here either.
Didn't you say earlier that if you asked them to put phones on the desk they would get stolen. Now you are saying that you tell them to put the phones on the desk during tests. That sounds like a contradiction.
How is asking to see someones phone calling them a liar. You haven't even asked them a question yet for them to lie.
Your school has some weird rules. I've never heard of a school telling you that you can't tell students to turn their phones off. I'd like to know where you teach so I NEVER apply at that school.
I do ask them to put them on desks during tests. During tests is different than during class. During tests, I'm watching the room. During class, I'm teaching. While there is still a risk, I feel it's lower when my full attention is on them, as it is during a test. Still, only about half of my students comply and something tells me it's not the half I have to worry about. As for phones getting stolen, I'm not in a high crime area but if someone doesn't like someone else, they may take a phone. It has happened that a phone was taken and texts or pictures sent intended to humiliate the student. I'm not sure whether my administration would back me if that happened because I had them put their phones on their desks but I think the risk is lower in a test situation where no one should be at anyone elses desk and I'm watching.
Asking to see someone's phone is an invasion of privacy. If they tell me they were not using their phone, the only way I can prove they were would be to go through their texts. I would be calling them a liar in doing so and I would be, rightfully, fired for going through their texts. The fact the phone is on, if it is on (as I said, all they have to do is hit the off button before they pocket the phone) doesn't mean they were using it any more than the phone being off means they weren't (you don't actually buy that do you? It's pretty easy to turn a phone off with one hand in your pocket.)
All they have to do is hide the phone before I get over to where they are sitting and lie about using it and there is nothing I can do. I see no reason to humiliate myself. Unless I see the phone, I can't take the phone. If I do see the phone, I do take the phone. I, rarely, see the phone. Usually, I just see what looks like texting motions. If the student says they were picking at their cuticles, I have to accept that unless I can prove otherwise. I'd have a parent demanding my job if I went through the texts on the phone.
It is, simply, not against school rules to have a phone on. It can't be seen or heard but it can be on. There's no point in having a rule they have to be off since they can just turn the phone off as they slip it in their pocket and the only way I could verify it was on would be to ask for the phone, which I have no reason to do if I didn't actually see them using it.
Seriously, I don't want to face the parent of a student I accused of using their phone when they weren't. I have a friend who has a policy that if she thinks you're cheating, she puts a zero on your test. The student is then to finish the test and will get a chance to defend themselves afterwards. She saw a girl with her hand in her purse moving her hand like she was texting and put a zero on her test. After the test, the girl came up and showed her that she had a stress ball in her purse. She was very nervous about the test and was squeezing the ball to deal with the stress. While it's highly likely they are texting if they look like they're texting or playing a game on their calculators (I suppose you think I should have them turn them off in my class too?), I can't confirm it until I see it.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 03-18-2012 at 06:43 PM..
I do ask them to put them on desks during tests. During tests is different than during class. During tests, I'm watching the room. During class, I'm teaching. While there is still a risk, I feel it's lower when my full attention is on them, as it is during a test. Still, only about half of my students comply and something tells me it's not the half I have to worry about. As for phones getting stolen, I'm not in a high crime area but if someone doesn't like someone else, they may take a phone. It has happened that a phone was taken and texts or pictures sent intended to humiliate the student. I'm not sure whether my administration would back me if that happened because I had them put their phones on their desks but I think the risk is lower in a test situation where no one should be at anyone elses desk and I'm watching.
Asking to see someone's phone is an invasion of privacy. If they tell me they were not using their phone, the only way I can prove they were would be to go through their texts. I would be calling them a liar in doing so and I would be, rightfully, fired for going through their texts. The fact the phone is on, if it is on (as I said, all they have to do is hit the off button before they pocket the phone) doesn't mean they were using it any more than the phone being off means they weren't (you don't actually buy that do you? It's pretty easy to turn a phone off with one hand in your pocket.)
All they have to do is hide the phone before I get over to where they are sitting and lie about using it and there is nothing I can do. I see no reason to humiliate myself. Unless I see the phone, I can't take the phone. If I do see the phone, I do take the phone. I, rarely, see the phone. Usually, I just see what looks like texting motions. If the student says they were picking at their cuticles, I have to accept that unless I can prove otherwise.
All I know is that at my school we had the policy and enforced it strictly. I never felt like a fool. Several teachers would go through a students texts to see if they had texted anyone at school, and then that person could get in trouble as well. I never did just because I felt it was too invasive. Just as it is not invasion of privacy to search a students backpack, I do not think it's against the law to go through their text messages. In loco parentis gives school officials some parental rights while the child is at school.
You are missing my main point though. If you had the policy and made an effort to enforce it from day one, I think you would eliminate a good portion of the problem. I would move all my suspected texters to the front row. That way I would be able to see them. And if I know they were texting, then as far as I'm concerned I did see it. So I ask for their phone. I did once have a kid refuse to give me his phone when I suspected he was texting. He received an office referral from me. Then was forced to give the phone to the principal and come back and apologize to me for disrespecting me.
I'm the one who said the phones would get stolen. Our school is in a high-crime area where thievery is unfortunately very common. You probably wouldn't want to apply here either.
Well I would never have the students put their phones on their desk so it would be a moot point. I teach ACT prep right now at a school that is very low performing, and the students come from a high crime area. I started this post because I was astonished at how the teachers just let the kids listen to music and use their cell phones in class. And the district handbook clearly states that it's not allowed. When I started teaching the class I asked the students to put their electronic devices away and they looked at me like I had some nerve to come into their class and ask this of them. They challenged me on it and I backed down given that I'm only teaching this class for this year until I get my teaching license for this state. If it was my classroom from day one the students would know exactly what the policy was and I would have the principal in the room as I outlined the policy on the first day of school.
I do ask them to put them on desks during tests. During tests is different than during class. During tests, I'm watching the room. During class, I'm teaching. While there is still a risk, I feel it's lower when my full attention is on them, as it is during a test. Still, only about half of my students comply and something tells me it's not the half I have to worry about. As for phones getting stolen, I'm not in a high crime area but if someone doesn't like someone else, they may take a phone. It has happened that a phone was taken and texts or pictures sent intended to humiliate the student. I'm not sure whether my administration would back me if that happened because I had them put their phones on their desks but I think the risk is lower in a test situation where no one should be at anyone elses desk and I'm watching.
Asking to see someone's phone is an invasion of privacy. If they tell me they were not using their phone, the only way I can prove they were would be to go through their texts. I would be calling them a liar in doing so and I would be, rightfully, fired for going through their texts. The fact the phone is on, if it is on (as I said, all they have to do is hit the off button before they pocket the phone) doesn't mean they were using it any more than the phone being off means they weren't (you don't actually buy that do you? It's pretty easy to turn a phone off with one hand in your pocket.)
All they have to do is hide the phone before I get over to where they are sitting and lie about using it and there is nothing I can do. I see no reason to humiliate myself. Unless I see the phone, I can't take the phone. If I do see the phone, I do take the phone. I, rarely, see the phone. Usually, I just see what looks like texting motions. If the student says they were picking at their cuticles, I have to accept that unless I can prove otherwise. I'd have a parent demanding my job if I went through the texts on the phone.
It is, simply, not against school rules to have a phone on. It can't be seen or heard but it can be on. There's no point in having a rule they have to be off since they can just turn the phone off as they slip it in their pocket and the only way I could verify it was on would be to ask for the phone, which I have no reason to do if I didn't actually see them using it.
Seriously, I don't want to face the parent of a student I accused of using their phone when they weren't. I have a friend who has a policy that if she thinks you're cheating, she puts a zero on your test. The student is then to finish the test and will get a chance to defend themselves afterwards. She saw a girl with her hand in her purse moving her hand like she was texting and put a zero on her test. After the test, the girl came up and showed her that she had a stress ball in her purse. She was very nervous about the test and was squeezing the ball to deal with the stress. While it's highly likely they are texting if they look like they're texting or playing a game on their calculators (I suppose you think I should have them turn them off in my class too?), I can't confirm it until I see it.
Maybe I have misconstrued the environment in your classroom. You seemed to have described an environment where the students that did not care to listen were basically allowed to text. Now you are saying that if you see the phone you do take it. So that changes my perception dramatically.
All I know is that at my school we had the policy and enforced it strictly. I never felt like a fool. Several teachers would go through a students texts to see if they had texted anyone at school, and then that person could get in trouble as well. I never did just because I felt it was too invasive. Just as it is not invasion of privacy to search a students backpack, I do not think it's against the law to go through their text messages. In loco parentis gives school officials some parental rights while the child is at school.
You are missing my main point though. If you had the policy and made an effort to enforce it from day one, I think you would eliminate a good portion of the problem. I would move all my suspected texters to the front row. That way I would be able to see them. And if I know they were texting, then as far as I'm concerned I did see it. So I ask for their phone. I did once have a kid refuse to give me his phone when I suspected he was texting. He received an office referral from me. Then was forced to give the phone to the principal and come back and apologize to me for disrespecting me.
If I went through a student's pack pack or phone history, I would have a parent demanding my job and it's far easier to replace a teacher than to deal with an irrate parent. Either action would not float here. Here the student is innocent until proven guilty. If I can't prove it, I can't do a thing about it.
I'll sooner see flying pigs than I'll see a student appologize to me after being sent to the office. They don't make them appologize. I wish they would. It would send a message.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
