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I have posted a few times on this forum and it has always been informative. A few years ago I posted about my son who had started an aluminum foil ball-making "company" in the 4th grade playground and had "hired" a team of ball makers and playground salespeople. He had made about $25, mostly in dimes and quarters, until I found out about it and squashed the business. In 5th grade he constantly begged us to drop him off for a few days in the middle of the Canadian forest with only a pocket knife for survival. This year, he started several other for-profit "businesses." He has even personally contacted (unbeknownst to us) some of the world's biggest companies to sponsor him in a sporting event, and he succeeded in both getting the funds and getting his picture on their websites.
This kid is now 13 and continues to be smart, savvy, creative, mischievous, and a natural born leader, while teetering on the edge of troublemaking and detention. This is the eldest child, a kid whose teammates consistently pick him to be their team captain, the boy who the girls like, and the kid who teachers put in the front desks so they can keep an eye on him. He is the kid who is identified as an influence on other students - both good and bad.
I think there can be a very fine line between leadership and troublemaking sometimes. He can influence people, has great ideas and strong opinions about how things should be done, but these traits can get him into trouble. He often takes the blame for others as well. He is the "voice" of his peers to influence (manipulate?) situations. It is often difficult for him to assume a necessary "follower" role or blindly follow rules without questioning, and he may even avoid situations where he can't be the de facto leader.
Teaching respect is very important and stressed with this child. We do have a very good communication with him and stress appropriate behavior and apply discipline. But he often questions authority or breaks rules/boundaries that he didn't even know existed. I have been told by some teachers/coaches that he is an outstanding, "respectful" young man (he even won a school leadership award televised at a professional game), while I've received emails from other teachers about his "very disrespectful" and "challenging" classroom behavior. It often seems like teachers either absolutely love him or detest him.
This kid easily gets good grades and is in honors classes, but his mind and body are always on the move - testing situations beyond what is perceived to be "acceptable." He is on the high honor role and also sometimes on the detention list. He is basically a good, happy, confident kid with a lot of good friends who feels he is ready to take over the world.
His parents aren't particularly rule based and have given him great freedom to explore things and take risks, which could be part of the problem. It is no surprise that he is very similar to us - 2 relatively smart people who had so much trouble working for others that we had to start our own companies. Both our parents laugh and tell us "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree" and you will see what we went through.
So what are some ideas for educating smart boys who may be both leaders and troublemakers? How do you foster natural leadership in a school which necessarily prioritizes on following established rules. Do you think, in general, the public school system is a good environment for these types of kids?
I welcome input, experience, advice in this area as I fully admit I have a lot to learn, especially about middle school boys....
Being a leader and following rules aren't mutually exclusive, and following order and structure in order to function in society isn't necessarily being a "blind follower." Having a strong opinion and being able to influence others is great, but remember that the strongest and best leaders are those who also take input and guidance from others, as well.
I don't think it's so much about whether or not a public school, with its rules, structure, and hierarchy,is a good place for a strong-willed individual to be or to learn. Think about what your son will most need to prepare him for a fruitful, independent, successful life once he is an adult. You could remove him from a setting where he is expected to tailor his behavior to comply within certain parameters, if you determine that this stifles his natural leadership ability. But what you'd really be doing is denying him the opportunity to learn a truth about life that's not going to disappear once he's done with school and is an adult, functioning in the world...and that's that heirarchies, order, and structure are a part of most settings that most people participate in, in life. Do you want him to have a difficult time as a professional? I'm sure as a person who admittedly had a hard time working under others, you wouldn't wish your child future workplace difficulties and the struggles that go hand in hand with being unable to work well with others, should it come to that. And that's what could happen if he gets the idea, especially at a tender age, that rules are for other people...people not as smart, strong, creative, individualistic, as him, for instance.
I would be careful of teaching a kid, even inadvertently, that if they are smart, have opinions, are charismatic, etc., they are above having to follow rules. Following rules is just a part of functioning within a society, obviously, whether or not one is self-employed, an entrepreneur, whatever. My dad started his own company, too, and ran it, in part because he didn't enjoy "taking orders" from others. In reality? He gave up having a boss and traded it in for having MANY bosses. Every client or customer he had became his boss. Instead of learning to smartly and reasonably report to one supervisor and hone his interpersonal skills in doing so, he reported to loads of people...different "bosses" for every job, assignment, project, etc. that he undertook. Working "for yourself" doesn't mean the end of having to work well with others. It also doesn't exempt you from having to follow rules - rules of society, laws, procedures that affect everyone. You still are going to have to follow rules. Considering yourself above following rules because you're too smart and independent for that can be a pretty big can of worms, even, if taken to extremes, a dangerous one.
School is a really easy place to learn the basics of purposeful structure and how to play the game. Plenty of smart, independent kids learn how to play the game, and live fruitful, independent lives because of it. It's a lot easier to learn how to work and play well with others at the middle and elementary school level than to have to learn it once an adult, when nobody's interested in giving you lots of opportunities to shape your behavior, they way they are when you are a child.
His parents aren't particularly rule based and have given him great freedom to explore things and take risks, which could be part of the problem. It is no surprise that he is very similar to us - 2 relatively smart people who had so much trouble working for others that we had to start our own companies. Both our parents laugh and tell us "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree" and you will see what we went through.
So what are some ideas for educating smart boys who may be both leaders and troublemakers? How do you foster natural leadership in a school which necessarily prioritizes on following established rules. Do you think, in general, the public school system is a good environment for these types of kids?
I welcome input, experience, advice in this area as I fully admit I have a lot to learn, especially about middle school boys....
I think you're already doing what needs to be done--he is just like you guys so you will intuitively understand what it is that he needs. If you want to tweak it, have you considered home-schooling and is it something you could manage? He will shine in the subjects that he thinks he needs but will rebel when he gets to high school and has to take a subject that he doesn't feel is relevant. He doesn't sound so much spoiled to me as he does strong willed and he will actually be easier to homeschool than a lazy child because he will have all of his own ideas about what he wants to do and learn and will actually follow thru and you won't have to ride him all the time--just keep him from burning the house down lol.
Oh, and as for following rules, and this is funny b/c I was just telling this story today: I have a friend who got her master's degree in music ed and she said the entire course was all about the rules governing the structure of music, but on the last day of school, the professor said, "Okay, now that you guys know all the rules, feel free to break them." In other words, you need to know the rules before you can intelligently break them.
OP, that sounds a lot like my son.
Once when I was preoccupied buying shoes for his baby sister I didn't realize that he wasn't still sitting on the chair next to us until I noticed the other parents in the store giving me dirty looks. My four year old son was like a little Pied Piper and had convinced about six other children to play follow the leader with him. He was currently crawling under a row of chairs with the other children all crawling behind him. Their parents were calling to their children to stop but they just kept following my son. It wasn't until I stopped him that the other kids went back to their parents.
Once as a senior in high school we got a call from the police station for us to pick up our son. Well, he had been drinking and turned a corner too fast or too sharp and ran into the back of a stopped police car with the police officer still inside. Wow, they could have truly "threw the book at him." The police officer sternly told us and our son how dangerous it is to drink and drive and that he could be charged with this serious thing and that serious crime and this other serious crime. We were terrified for our son. The officer then took us aside (where our son couldn't hear him) and said that our son was the nicest, most polite teen that he (the police office) had met in years. The police office told us that as soon as our son's car hit the police car our son jumped out and ran over and apologized to him and asked if he was hurt. The police officer was so amazed by that behavior that he only was going to give him a minor ticket for driving too fast for conditions (or something like that) and not give him an underage drinking ticket and other tickets for hitting the patrol car (neither car had any damage).
BTW Our son, to our knowledge, never drank and drove again.
Where is our leader/trouble maker son? Doing post doctoral scientific work and married to a wonderful woman.
Thanks for letting me share. I'm pretty sure that your son will turn out fine as well.
Being a leader and following rules aren't mutually exclusive, and following order and structure in order to function in society isn't necessarily being a "blind follower." Having a strong opinion and being able to influence others is great, but remember that the strongest and best leaders are those who also take input and guidance from others, as well.
School is a really easy place to learn the basics of purposeful structure and how to play the game. Plenty of smart, independent kids learn how to play the game, and live fruitful, independent lives because of it. It's a lot easier to learn how to work and play well with others at the middle and elementary school level than to have to learn it once an adult, when nobody's interested in giving you lots of opportunities to shape your behavior, they way they are when you are a child.
Great post by TabulaRasa! It's one thing to question a rule, to question authority and quite another to break a rule or to be rude just because you don't feel like following it or you think you are above the rules. If you can make your son understand that, you will have done him a great service.
I have posted a few times on this forum and it has always been informative. A few years ago I posted about my son who had started an aluminum foil ball-making "company" in the 4th grade playground and had "hired" a team of ball makers and playground salespeople. He had made about $25, mostly in dimes and quarters, until I found out about it and squashed the business. In 5th grade he constantly begged us to drop him off for a few days in the middle of the Canadian forest with only a pocket knife for survival. This year, he started several other for-profit "businesses." He has even personally contacted (unbeknownst to us) some of the world's biggest companies to sponsor him in a sporting event, and he succeeded in both getting the funds and getting his picture on their websites.
This kid is now 13 and continues to be smart, savvy, creative, mischievous, and a natural born leader, while teetering on the edge of troublemaking and detention. This is the eldest child, a kid whose teammates consistently pick him to be their team captain, the boy who the girls like, and the kid who teachers put in the front desks so they can keep an eye on him. He is the kid who is identified as an influence on other students - both good and bad.
I think there can be a very fine line between leadership and troublemaking sometimes. He can influence people, has great ideas and strong opinions about how things should be done, but these traits can get him into trouble. He often takes the blame for others as well. He is the "voice" of his peers to influence (manipulate?) situations. It is often difficult for him to assume a necessary "follower" role or blindly follow rules without questioning, and he may even avoid situations where he can't be the de facto leader.
Teaching respect is very important and stressed with this child. We do have a very good communication with him and stress appropriate behavior and apply discipline. But he often questions authority or breaks rules/boundaries that he didn't even know existed. I have been told by some teachers/coaches that he is an outstanding, "respectful" young man (he even won a school leadership award televised at a professional game), while I've received emails from other teachers about his "very disrespectful" and "challenging" classroom behavior. It often seems like teachers either absolutely love him or detest him.
This kid easily gets good grades and is in honors classes, but his mind and body are always on the move - testing situations beyond what is perceived to be "acceptable." He is on the high honor role and also sometimes on the detention list. He is basically a good, happy, confident kid with a lot of good friends who feels he is ready to take over the world.
His parents aren't particularly rule based and have given him great freedom to explore things and take risks, which could be part of the problem. It is no surprise that he is very similar to us - 2 relatively smart people who had so much trouble working for others that we had to start our own companies. Both our parents laugh and tell us "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree" and you will see what we went through.
So what are some ideas for educating smart boys who may be both leaders and troublemakers? How do you foster natural leadership in a school which necessarily prioritizes on following established rules. Do you think, in general, the public school system is a good environment for these types of kids?
I welcome input, experience, advice in this area as I fully admit I have a lot to learn, especially about middle school boys....
Hi, sounds like my son. All of the above except we tried to have a rules bases structure to keep him within bounds at home and school. It didn't work.
Well he is 30 today, married and the father of two small children and in his last year of PharmD. I expect that he will work in pharmacy until he has enough resources to support his family and will start his own business of some sort. His eyes still light up on any entrepreneurial opportunity.
It has been a hard row to hoe for him getting from that boy to this man. I think the biggest thing was his sense of responsibility to the right woman and two children. The woman makes the man.
Good luck and at least you all have made it this far and maybe you can tap into that interest with letting him try some of his ideas that are appropriate to a teenager. Kind of give some of that energy a chance to be put to good use.
who is identified as an influence on other students - both good and bad.
I think there can be a very fine line between leadership and troublemaking sometimes. He can influence is very similar to us - 2 relatively smart people who had so much trouble working for others that we had to start our own companies. Both our parents laugh and tell us "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree" and you will see what we went through.
So what are some ideas for educating smart boys who may be both leaders and troublemakers? How do you foster natural leadership in a school which necessarily prioritizes on following established rules. Do you think, in general, the public school system is a good environment for these types of kids?
Yes there is. What really is the problem? The fact your son is ambitious or that he is not popular with everyone?
Honestly, he sounds like a great, smart, savvy kid. Smart, savvy kids, quite honestly, find the "zero tolerance" mentality that's prevalent in schools, as well as the herding of kids as a group, to be directly contrary to what they know is "real life." It's great that he's testing boundaries and stretching the limits...
What types of rules is he breaking? Is he choosing not to do hours of busywork each day? Finding different ways to find solutions to problems other than the ways that the teacher wants the problems done? Challenging the teacher with questions that he or she has to look up the answers to and not answer off-the-cuff? These types of things frustrate those in authority, but should, IMO be ENCOURAGED!!
Or is he acting like a bully, being disruptive and rude in class, refusing to sit down when it's time to get to work? These things, obviously, should be discouraged in a big way.
The issue is that some teachers will say that a kid is being disrespectful when he's simply looking for clarification on an issue. Or might think that by getting his work done quickly and moving along to something else while the rest of the class is still working on their dittos is distracting others.
I don't think that the public school system works for all kids, or even most kids. If your son is smart and world-savvy, then he's probably very frustrated sitting in a classroom all day long. I personally homeschool my own kids, in part to avoid this very issue. I find micromanagement exhausting, and I imagine that the kids in school do, too. I realize that homeschooling isn't possible for everyone, but it might be worth considering. You could also look into magnet schools that might cater to his particular learning style and interests, whether that is technology, math and science, or the arts.
Good luck! It's tough figuring out where our kids would be best off, educationally speaking, and kudos to you for being willing to make changes if necessary for your specific kid.
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