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You don't get 4/5ths of students failing because they are not capable. You get 4/5s failing because they lack the foundation skills and education to take the course. Neither of those can be determined by GPA and test scores.
Test scores in physics can absolutely predict whether or not a students is "ready" to take AP Physics. Same can be said for AP Bio and AP Chem. Weird that you think I meant ability as I never used that word. But if a student failed the prior class, the pace is such that the vast majority will not pass without the basic knowledge set the failed to gain in the prior course.
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As I said above, no high school course, including AP courses, are so difficult as to require ability based limitations. Your typical college graduate should breeze through most AP courses and pass all; but nearly all 4th graders would struggle in any AP course. That is a function of knowledge and skill, not ability and capability.
Why are you arbitrarily putting "ability" limitations? If a student has not done well in the prior, required science course, whether through ability or whatever, they are not going to do well in the AP versions of those courses. If you flunked Chem, you do not have the resources to pass AP Chem. Which may or may not be ability.
And lets be clear, right now, even with the majority of AP "requirements" that most schools use, 1/2 of AP Physics C students are failing the exams. For bio and chem, more than a 1/3 are failing the exams. Hell even, Calc BC exams fail well over 60% of students now, before we open the gates. If you want to claim that they are failing for reasons beyond ability, fine, so be it. But the fact is allowing students who have not done well in the prior science class (using GPA) or the scores on tests in those classes to have better access.
I don't get what you're saying. It's still up to the colleges/universities what scores they'll accept. These tests are not pass/fail; you get a number grade, 1-5.
Maybe this is a regional issue, but around here, 3 is passing, anything less is failing and will not be accepted by any schools.
Also, to answer a question from earlier, the College Board had their own study conducted a few years ago that indicated that students who take an AP class, regardless of whether they even take the exam, tend to do better in college and graduate at a higher rate.
In all honestly, I always took that study with an entire shaker of salt. I realize the College Board confirming their own programs with a study it commissioned and carried out has no reason to be suspect, but even so.
Especially as the reason that subset of students are doing better is just as likely due to the fact that most schools, and even the AP themselves, have requirements that need to be met just to get into the class.
In all honestly, I always took that study with an entire shaker of salt. I realize the College Board confirming their own programs with a study it commissioned and carried out has no reason to be suspect, but even so.
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Originally Posted by lkb0714
Especially as the reason that subset of students are doing better is just as likely due to the fact that most schools, and even the AP themselves, have requirements that need to be met just to get into the class.
Nah, they compared low SES student with similar GPAs to get those results. So they compare good students who did AP classes against good students who didn't.
My guess is the exposure to the harder, faster, less hand-holding college level classroom atmosphere gives kids an idea of what to expect in college even of they don't pass the class. These are similar results to what you get when you compare low SES students who have undertaken a pre-freshman summer program against those who have not. Remember this is a group that tends to have rougher transition problems during their freshman college year (failing a class, lower GPAs) and many studies have shown that it's not due to intellect. It's more about not being as prepared as peers (that's usually about high school quality) and being too intimidated to ask for help when they need it.
That said, I do agree that not EVERY student needs to take AP classes without meeting some kind of gatekeeping requirements. I don't think the experience of taking and failing a college level class is helpful to a student that isn't already planning to attend college. For it to be useful, it needs to be a student who wants to go to college and has largely been successful up until that moment. I think it also needs to be done in an atmosphere where faculty can help a student put a failure into perspective so they don't give up on their dreams.
Nah, they compared low SES student with similar GPAs to get those results. So they compare good students who did AP classes against good students who didn't.
My guess is they exposure to the harder, faster, less hand-holding college level classroom atmosphere gives kids an idea of what to expect in college even of they don't pass the class. These are similar results to what you get when you compare low SES students who have undertaken a pre-freshman summer program against those who have not. Remember this is a group that tends to have rougher transition problems during their freshman college year (failing a class, lower GPAs) and many studies have shown that it's not due to intellect. It's more about not being as prepared as peers (that's usually about high school quality) and being too intimidated to ask for help when they need it.
Comparing kids who could get into AP classes and did to those who could get in and did not is is not remotely the same thing and does not remotely prove that the causal effect for doing better in college is taking the class. Those are two completely different populations.
What you would need to do is compare kids who meet the requirements to get in and choose to take the AP class to those who do not meet the requirements AND still took the class due to the requirements being waived against teacher/schools wishes.
Comparing kids who could get into AP classes and did to those who could get in and did not is is not remotely the same thing and does not remotely prove that the causal effect for doing better in college is taking the class. Those are two completely different populations.
What you would need to do is compare kids who meet the requirements to get in and choose to take the AP class to those who do not meet the requirements AND still took the class due to the requirements being waived against teacher/schools wishes.
Well, it depends on what kind of variables you are focusing on. In this case they were looking for differences in preparation of Low SES students with similar high school academic performance levels, and to see which intervention factors made a difference in college persistence. In the example you provided you are making the variable high school academic performance itself, since that is really the difference between those who could get into the class without a waiver and those who could not.
Anyway, there is a definite correlation between low SES students took APs and better persistence in college. Of course it is correlation not causation so we can only speculate on the reason.
Comparing kids who could get into AP classes and did to those who could get in and did not is is not remotely the same thing and does not remotely prove that the causal effect for doing better in college is taking the class. Those are two completely different populations.
What you would need to do is compare kids who meet the requirements to get in and choose to take the AP class to those who do not meet the requirements AND still took the class due to the requirements being waived against teacher/schools wishes.
But that's not what was looked at. College Board looked at completion rates for AP students relative to the rates of those who took no AP classes.
Well, it depends on what kind of variables you are focusing on. In this case they were looking for differences in preparation of Low SES students with similar high school academic performance levels, and to see which intervention factors made a difference in college persistence. In the example you provided you are making the variable high school academic performance itself, since that is really the difference between those who could get into the class without a waiver and those who could not.
Anyway, there is a definite correlation between low SES students took APs and better persistence in college. Of course it is correlation not causation so we can only speculate on the reason.
Well the reason we can only speculate is because that wasn't the question they were trying to answer.
It is possible, to determine whether or not it is in anyone's best interest to remove all requirements to get into AP courses, it is just that the study the person presented did not answer that particular question. It also did not prove that allowing kids into AP classes when they have not met the requirements will help them in college as they asserted but that is a slightly different question as well.
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