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Making the expense of a college education pay off requires a quite high level of intelligence.
Agreed for the most part. However, I don't think a "high level of intelligence" is necessarily needed for most degrees. Probably at least slightly above intelligence though. At least for most majors and for the vast majority of jobs in Corporate America. I mean, they've done studies on IQ by college majors and most of the business oriented majors (accounting, business, management, marketing) are somewhere, on average, between 100-110.
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Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk
A person either displays that intelligence at the front end by going into a major that promises a lucrative career, or a person displays that intelligence at the back end by parlaying a less lucrative major into a lucrative career.
Lucrative is relative. The median household income across the U.S. is somewhere around $70k per annum. Two teachers living together, earning $55k/yr. each, can exceed that amount by quite a bit. A six figure household income can easily support a small family in most parts of the U.S.
As far as intelligence, see comment above. I've worked in Corporate America for nearly two decades, and the idea that all these people are of the highest intellect is kind of humorous to me. It doesn't take a brainiac to attain a bachelor's degree, especially in business-related fields like business admin, management, marketing, HR, or accounting.
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Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk
If the person is not really that bright...they wind up with a big college debt and a career that's not worth it.
100% agreed. Those people should not be pushed towards college if they don't have a specific goal in mind.
I'll have to take your word for it. The joke is so hackneyed, that the humor must be lost on me.
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Originally Posted by EDS_
2. Everyone in my nuclear family + our daughter in law is in STEM, none are rigid minded.
I didn't say all of them were. Just like there are a lot of STEM majors who don't spend time trolling non-STEM majors on internet forums or elsewhere, but there are those who do. All I said (in response to another comment) is that STEM tends to attract these sorts of people, and, in my experience, in much higher numbers than non-STEM related fields. And it follows, as the disciplines tend to be very rules-oriented and rigid (and for good reason). Nobody wants their airplane falling out the sky or their bridge collapsing out from underneath them. These characteristics about them are indeed valued, especially in those types of roles where it is necessary to think this way. However, sometimes this rigidity in thinking can come across as rude or obtuse when engaging with other people in discussions about their professions or educational achievements.
My comment was not a knock on those types of people, so I'm sorry if you took it that way.
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Originally Posted by EDS_
2.1. I've heard literally no one seriously claim that English Lit. majors en masse are broke, homeless and unemployed. I flat out know by reading high confidence data that most STEM types out-earn, and significantly so, most soft science types.
Yeah, we know already, because they can't stop talking about it. Also, was the point that STEM majors earn more/less than non-STEM majors even being debated? I don't think it was, yet here were are...again.
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Originally Posted by EDS_
3. I'm not sure if your last paragraph is a joke/shock value or what.........a quick dive into the area more or less proves that we are desperately short of advanced degree holders across a range of STEM areas and there are relative oversupplies in academia and shortages in .gov and the private sectors. And these shortages where they appear will get worse over the next 10 or so years.
Outside of academia and very prestigious roles in private and government, this point is not going to resonate with at least 90% of people out there getting degrees who are simply doing it to get a regular ol' administrative/operational j-o-b or to enrich themselves in some other manner. Most people aren't going to college in order to become a PhD, MD, or otherwise highly acclaimed professional with academic research to their name. Also, outside of medicine, the job market for PhDs is incredibly competitive. You can check out some of the grad school and post grad subs on reddit to see this in action.
Last edited by digitalUID; 11-28-2023 at 07:19 PM..
The supply of new entrants is constrained primarily by the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS), a federal agency that provides the bulk of the funding for hospital residencies.
Unless you're hiring sprocket tighteners and widget producers, then I don't really follow. As I have almost entirely worked knowledge based jobs for my entire post-college career, it is not uncommon to observe people "step away" from work for some time fiddling on their phone, browsing non-work websites, etc. I sit by a late 30 something manager of compliance engineers and she is frequently on websites like Amazon, Facebook, or otherwise. I don't ever bat an eye over it myself; she is highly respected in the department so it must be working out.
Do you not realize that the great majority of workers in America are not in "knowledge-based" jobs?
Agreed for the most part. However, I don't think a "high level of intelligence" is necessarily needed for most degrees. Probably at least slightly above intelligence though. At least for most majors and for the vast majority of jobs in Corporate America. I mean, they've done studies on IQ by college majors and most of the business oriented majors (accounting, business, management, marketing) are somewhere, on average, between 100-110.
When brightness is not needed to get the degree, brightness is needed to make that degree pay off.
Quote:
Lucrative is relative. The median household income across the U.S. is somewhere around $70k per annum. Two teachers living together, earning $55k/yr. each, can exceed that amount by quite a bit. A six figure household income can easily support a small family in most parts of the U.S.
Stipulating dollar amounts is fairly useless because regional costs of living vary so much. Generally, where average wages are higher, costs of living are commensurately higher.
What seems to be more consistent is that in any given region, it takes about 60 hours of labor per week at that region's average wage to maintain a small family at a frugal-but-comfortable level. How a family reaches that 60 hours of labor per week can obviously vary.
Thus, it turns out that two teachers living together and raising a family in most regions are generally doing "okay," frugally, but not really well-off. If both are working full-time but have kids in daycare, that usually costs half or more of one person's income.
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As far as intelligence, see comment above. I've worked in Corporate America for nearly two decades, and the idea that all these people are of the highest intellect is kind of humorous to me. It doesn't take a brainiac to attain a bachelor's degree, especially in business-related fields like business admin, management, marketing, HR, or accounting.
Inasmuch as a lot of those wind up being very smart coffee shop baristas, some have enough back-end intelligence to get those jobs...but a lot don't. But another question: Why do many of those jobs that "don't take a brainiac" require a bachelor's degree instead of an apprenticeship?
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100% agreed. Those people should not be pushed towards college if they don't have a specific goal in mind.
The problem is that in today's college-tunnel-minded education system, those kids aren't guided toward anything.
Do you not realize that the great majority of workers in America are not in "knowledge-based" jobs?
I'm not disputing that. Which is why I put in the caveat that unless they're doing something production oriented, this is generally a non-issue. So, back to my point of how this is a hiring/performance management problem.
Solutions?
1) Pay better for higher quality or more experienced employees
2) Incorporate a 'no phone policy' while on the floor/clock
3) Adopt a progressive enforcement code which penalizes employees for each corrective action notated (a possible "3 strikes, you're out" policy)
Mind you, you're the one that made this about lowly paid hourly workers in production roles. Looking back at the comments, you responded out of left field to my comment about gaining experience in technical fields from a younger age. Why you made this about Gen-Z workers being unreliable is beyond me, unless it's a personal axe to grind about young people. Maybe you should look at the OP and thread title again as a reminder of what this discussion is about. If you want to veer off onto a topic about the unreliability of young people in production roles, you should create a thread about that on the Work forum. It sounds interesting and I would happily participate.
My question is does the rating get transferred to civilian/insurance certificate? And does a Navy stationary also qualify in turbine and ICE power equipment?
Honestly I don’t know for sure. I’ve been out of the Navy since 1998 and many things have changed since then. I do know some guys who left the service and was able to get work at a power plant. Don’t know what they did to get there.
When brightness is not needed to get the degree, brightness is needed to make that degree pay off.
According to the data, most degrees do pay off compared to not having a degree in terms of career earnings. You neither need to be a brainiac to earn a college degree or make a college degree pay off, whatever that is supposed to mean. You do, however, need to be hard working and disciplined over the course of at least four years. Not everyone is cut out for it, as fewer than 40% of Americans possess a bachelor's degree.
Even a $50k/yr general office job requiring a degree is going to be hand over fist better than a back breaking manual labor job or retail job earning $13-$17/hr with few holidays or weekends off. And those $55k/yr teaching jobs you snubbed your nose at get 3 months off per year and salaries go up year after year. A lot of the tenured teachers at my wife's school make six figures with all the same perks.
Just having the overall better quality of life can be worth the investment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk
Stipulating dollar amounts is fairly useless because regional costs of living vary so much. Generally, where average wages are higher, costs of living are commensurately higher.
What seems to be more consistent is that in any given region, it takes about 60 hours of labor per week at that region's average wage to maintain a small family at a frugal-but-comfortable level. How a family reaches that 60 hours of labor per week can obviously vary.
Thus, it turns out that two teachers living together and raising a family in most regions are generally doing "okay," frugally, but not really well-off. If both are working full-time but have kids in daycare, that usually costs half or more of one person's income.
Just because someone thinks having a boat, 2nd lake house, 3 exotic vacations per year, 3.5 kids in day care, driving a BMW, and having a massive nest egg is essential for happiness doesn't make it so for everyone else.
Obviously you didn't use those examples yourself, but it's quite egotistical and arrogant to insinuate that one knows best what is befitting of any other person's household, financials, and life. I know plenty of people who are satisfied with their lives despite a modest living. The people who are often least satisfied in life are the ones who obsess over things like wealth accumulation, materialism, status, keeping up with the Joneses, etc.
People do a lot more with much less and are more than happy with how their life turned out. Contrarily, there are a lot of people with more than enough who are absolutely, downright miserable human beings. My wife works in education in one of the wealthiest school districts in the region and let me tell you some stories about those people. If you think they are mostly blissful because of their lot in life, then you truly know not what you speak about. The amount of s*** she has to deal with amongst those parents, many who are professional lawyers, doctors, execs, etc., is both mind blowing and exhausting. You'd think these people are better off for what they've achieved, but instead they're just more vindictive and cunning about how they unleash their misery unto the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk
Inasmuch as a lot of those wind up being very smart coffee shop baristas, some have enough back-end intelligence to get those jobs...but a lot don't. But another question: Why do many of those jobs that "don't take a brainiac" require a bachelor's degree instead of an apprenticeship?
That's a question for Corporate America's hiring directors and "thought leaders", not me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk
The problem is that in today's college-tunnel-minded education system, those kids aren't guided toward anything.
I will never not agree with this line of thinking. As someone who grew up relatively low income, blue collar, I 100% agree with you on this. It took me about five years before landing into something I enjoyed and yet another 10 years to navigate that path. And frankly, I still don't know what is in store for my future, because these are not conversations I ever had with anyone growing up.
Last edited by digitalUID; 11-28-2023 at 09:36 PM..
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