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Nobody doubts what you know or claim to know about this.
Nobody is saying you don't have the experience you have.
Let me try to explain this to you one more time:
YOUR EXPERIENCES ARE NOT ALL THERE ARE TO THE WORLD.
Your post at the top, to which I initially responded, and your closing paragraph of this most recent post are both aimed at convincing people that your experiences are what they can and should expect to find. They are not couched in language of "In this part of Michigan, it is like this. What is it like elsewhere?"
The thing is, Ivorytickler, I happen to believe it should be the way you describe things in middle school and high school, plus having those two work together for smooth transitions and cross-enrollment when appropriate.
Unfortunately, it is not required to work that way in any U.S. state, and the circumstances vary broadly, sometimes even to individual teachers within a school or a department within a system.
I know high schools that refuse to accept CTY courses as proof of learning - BUT will not permit students to test out, either. "If you haven't taken OUR course in this, then you need to take it." I've seen it with college transfers, as well.
The other factor you neglect in your over-simplified view of high schools (odd, since you ostensibly teach in one) is that schedules don't necessarily permit one to "just let them walk to a different class."
Not to mention that the class you wish to take early or harder might have a teacher unwilling to have another student in his class! ;-)
I never said they were. So why are you arguing they're not?
I don't know where you live but here, I get the kids in my class the administration wants in my class. There's no me being unwilling to take a younger student in the class. If they put them in my class, unless I have very good reason, they're staying. Ditto for my dd's teachers. My dd's were assigned to their classes. The decision as to what level class they would take was made by myself and the administration. I don't know of a single school where the teacher chooses the students in their class. Things must be really different in the high school you teach at.
Let me spell this out for you. High school kids take 7 different classes a day. Since they move from class to class, they can choose different classes than their friend (they do not move from class to class in one giant conjealed mass -- though the boys and girls do sometimes get stuck together in pairs....but that's another issue...). They can take a class down the next hall. The only issues are when classes conflict with other classes they need but there's, usually, some flexibility there as well. Schedule conflicts aside, a freshmen is free to walk over to the junior hall and take, say, chemistry which is normally a junior class. I teach four sections so they can choose the one that fits their schedule best.
Whether a student gets credit for a class is, entirely, different. A school does not have to award credit for a class taken elsewhere. They have every right to demand students take the required number of credits to graduate. Even though my dd is testing out of algebra, she still needs 4 math credits to graduate. Algebra just won't be one of them. Dd#2 has to take computers in spite of being able to teach the class because credit in a computer class is required for graduation. She can take the highest level class but that's the best they can do because it's a state requirement she take an actual class.
Being able to take higher level classes and getting credit for classes you did not take in that school are two different things. Sometimes schools don't teach classes the same.
I never said they were. So why are you arguing they're not?
I don't know where you live but here, I get the kids in my class the administration wants in my class. There's no me being unwilling to take a younger student in the class. If they put them in my class, unless I have very good reason, they're staying. Ditto for my dd's teachers. My dd's were assigned to their classes. The decision as to what level class they would take was made by myself and the administration. I don't know of a single school where the teacher chooses the students in their class. Things must be really different in the high school you teach at.
Let me spell this out for you. High school kids take 7 different classes a day. Since they move from class to class, they can choose different classes than their friend (they do not move from class to class in one giant conjealed mass -- though the boys and girls do sometimes get stuck together in pairs....but that's another issue...). They can take a class down the next hall. The only issues are when classes conflict with other classes they need but there's, usually, some flexibility there as well. Schedule conflicts aside, a freshmen is free to walk over to the junior hall and take, say, chemistry which is normally a junior class. I teach four sections so they can choose the one that fits their schedule best.
Whether a student gets credit for a class is, entirely, different. A school does not have to award credit for a class taken elsewhere. They have every right to demand students take the required number of credits to graduate. Even though my dd is testing out of algebra, she still needs 4 math credits to graduate. Algebra just won't be one of them. Dd#2 has to take computers in spite of being able to teach the class because credit in a computer class is required for graduation. She can take the highest level class but that's the best they can do because it's a state requirement she take an actual class.
Being able to take higher level classes and getting credit for classes you did not take in that school are two different things. Sometimes schools don't teach classes the same.
And not all schools let you take any class any year. At all four of my high schools, there were a lot of classes you had to be say a junior or senior for. They didn't care if you were academically ready for it. They cared about what grade you were in.
1) I never said they were. So why are you arguing they're not?
2) Things must be really different in the high school you teach at.
3) Let me spell this out for you. High school kids take 7 different classes a day. Since they move from class to class, they can choose different classes than their friend
The only issues are when classes conflict with other classes they need but there's, usually, some flexibility there as well. Schedule conflicts aside, a freshmen is free to walk over to the junior hall and take, say, chemistry which is normally a junior class. I teach four sections so they can choose the one that fits their schedule best.
Whether a student gets credit for a class is, entirely, different. A school does not have to award credit for a class taken elsewhere. They have every right to demand students take the required number of credits to graduate.
She can take the highest level class but that's the best they can do because it's a state requirement she take an actual class.
Being able to take higher level classes and getting credit for classes you did not take in that school are two different things. Sometimes schools don't teach classes the same.
In order: 1) I accept that you have no idea how your words sound. So, please understand that the phrase
Quote:
I don't think grade skipping is much of an issue past elementary school because you can kind of grade skip by subject in middle school and beyond by simply taking higher courses. Unfortunately, at the elementary level it's all or nothing. Skip the entire grade or not at all.
implies "this is the way it is across the country."
It doesn't say "you may be able to" or "near here you can simply..." When you say "it's all or nothing," there is no give, no suggestion that you mean anything other than what you say.
2) I work with kids and parents from somewhere over 150 different schools, k-12+, as well as a few dozen homeschool families. I am not offering the perspective of my high school - mine had no classes to speak of and was a lot of fun.
But... it means that I hear of more of the varieties of schooling than might be common.
3) Let me spell it out for YOU - SOME High school kids take 7 different classes a day. SOME high schools have 4 offerings of the same subject, but not all that many, especially at the higher levels. One AP Physics class, one AP English class, one AP US History class, etc - that was at a school with 2400 students in 9th - 12th.
In very few schools are students permitted to choose the higher level course without having gone through the lower level course. You misunderstood (or I miswrote) my example - it was not just that they would not give her credit - they forbade her to take the course for which she was ready.
Big schools have more options than small schools. This is not news. But the degree of flexibility is not so much based on the size of the school, but on the flexibility of the Principal or the System.
Parents just "know", but if the kid has really good grades in every subject without really trying (like me) then they should be skipped .
In my case my family already knew I was ahead of kids my age and even a little older than me, when I first entered the 2nd grade the school wanted to move me to a higher grade, I was 2 years ahead of everybody but I doubt they wanted me in the 4th grade because of the social factors, I believe I was supposed to be skipped to 3rd grade but it never materialized, I could have been going to college in fall 2009 but I'm still in HS lol.
Till this day I have never studied, but I always end up doing good.
In order: 1) I accept that you have no idea how your words sound. So, please understand that the phrase
implies "this is the way it is across the country."
It doesn't say "you may be able to" or "near here you can simply..." When you say "it's all or nothing," there is no give, no suggestion that you mean anything other than what you say.
2) I work with kids and parents from somewhere over 150 different schools, k-12+, as well as a few dozen homeschool families. I am not offering the perspective of my high school - mine had no classes to speak of and was a lot of fun.
But... it means that I hear of more of the varieties of schooling than might be common.
3) Let me spell it out for YOU - SOME High school kids take 7 different classes a day. SOME high schools have 4 offerings of the same subject, but not all that many, especially at the higher levels. One AP Physics class, one AP English class, one AP US History class, etc - that was at a school with 2400 students in 9th - 12th.
In very few schools are students permitted to choose the higher level course without having gone through the lower level course. You misunderstood (or I miswrote) my example - it was not just that they would not give her credit - they forbade her to take the course for which she was ready.
Big schools have more options than small schools. This is not news. But the degree of flexibility is not so much based on the size of the school, but on the flexibility of the Principal or the System.
Are you posting just to be argumentative? Just drop it already. I explained myself quite clearly. There's nothing to debate here. I told you how it works here. I assume we're not the only ones who work it that way.
I, honestly, don't know of a middle or high school that won't let a child take harder classes if they want them. It's simple to do when kids move from class to class. You just let them walk to a different class.
Not so simple apparently. I've never heard of a middle school allowing free flow between grade classes for students. NONE of the middle schools here will allow taking courses other than what is mandated for your grade. It's was even a struggle in middle school to get the kids into the highest course level they qualified for. Let me tell you why...test scores. All they care about is test scores. They put kids in classes slightly easier, less challenging and they know they will get higher scores than putting kids in classes that are more challenging. So, even if the kids qualify for Algebra 1 they funnel them into Transitional Algebra instead, wasting a year of math instruction but they score better at the end of the year. I suspect your experiences are not representative and that the only option for most students is to have to skip an entire grade.
As for high school, it's not uncommon here to have upperclassmen taking lower level courses but you can't take the higher level classes unless you have all the pre-req's. It's designed that way to keep the younger students from taking the classes. Partly because some seniors don't balance out their course load over the 4 years and they NEED to take required courses their last year...they can't be giving those seats to freshmen and sophomores who have plenty of time to get all their credits. Even students who plan out their 4 years of courses have a hard time getting what they want. DS has 2 changes on his sophomore schedule that will prevent him from taking the higher level courses his junior and senior year. If he can't get it changed now he's out of luck for the next two years as well.
Not so simple apparently. I've never heard of a middle school allowing free flow between grade classes for students. NONE of the middle schools here will allow taking courses other than what is mandated for your grade. It's was even a struggle in middle school to get the kids into the highest course level they qualified for. Let me tell you why...test scores. All they care about is test scores. They put kids in classes slightly easier, less challenging and they know they will get higher scores than putting kids in classes that are more challenging. So, even if the kids qualify for Algebra 1 they funnel them into Transitional Algebra instead, wasting a year of math instruction but they score better at the end of the year. I suspect your experiences are not representative and that the only option for most students is to have to skip an entire grade.
As for high school, it's not uncommon here to have upperclassmen taking lower level courses but you can't take the higher level classes unless you have all the pre-req's. It's designed that way to keep the younger students from taking the classes. Partly because some seniors don't balance out their course load over the 4 years and they NEED to take required courses their last year...they can't be giving those seats to freshmen and sophomores who have plenty of time to get all their credits. Even students who plan out their 4 years of courses have a hard time getting what they want. DS has 2 changes on his sophomore schedule that will prevent him from taking the higher level courses his junior and senior year. If he can't get it changed now he's out of luck for the next two years as well.
Well, I'm not talking about free flow in the sense that all students take what they want. I'm talking about students who have proven themselves to be a head of the curve and I don't know of a school that won't let them move a head. If a student isn't proven to be a head, they, probbaly, need to be with the other students in their grade.
Ditto on pre-req's here. Which is why dd#1 has to test out of algebra. She's taking 10th grade honors math in 9th grade either way but sometime between now and graduation, she has to pass the test to get the credit for algebra I. Dd#2 is easier because she's entering this school system younger. She will start taking high school classes this year in 7th grade and will already have the pre-reqs when she gets to high school.
Part of being a head is having your pre-req's done. You can't say you are a head if you haven't done coursework that is a head. You should be able to prove you are a head one way or the other.
I had a friend in high school who took summer school classes so that she could advance. Yeah, you need the check mark. They can't just take your word that you belong in the next class up. It's reasonable to expect you to prove it.
I will agree it's more common for upper classmen to be taking lower level courses because it's just more common for students to be behind than a head and, often, there are classes within the grade level to accomodate more advanced students. I teach two levels of chemistry to 11th graders.
It's easier to move between levels if kids are in a school with lots of electives. In the school I teach at, kids get one elective per year so they can choose to take a class that's one up (for example, I teach chemistry. Biology is the 10th grade science, chemistry 11th but there is nothing to stop a student from taking both at the same time.). My kids are going to a school where there are fewer electives so it's harder to jump up. If you don't enter high school a head, you'll have to do something like take night classes or summer classes to move up.
Here some high schools have gone to trimesters to give kids a chance to move up or back if they need to. I'm not sure I'd like teaching on trimesters (unless they lengthened the school year then I'd love it) but it's a good solution to the problem of students who both want to move a head or could use to retake a course for a better foundation. Extra time is baked right into the schedule.
Probably the best solution I saw to this was way back in the 1970's when over crowding in schools was a major problem. One school system here went to year round school with all students required to attend two of three semesters BUT students who wanted a faster pace or who needed to retake courses could opt to do all three. Kids could graduate a full year ealry if they wanted to, drop outs could drop back in and graduate on time and kids who needed to retake courses could do so without jeopardizing graduation on time. Too bad they dropped the program as soon as the over crowding situation was taken care of. I see a lot of advantages to offering year round schools.
Well, I'm not talking about free flow in the sense that all students take what they want. I'm talking about students who have proven themselves to be a head of the curve and I don't know of a school that won't let them move a head. If a student isn't proven to be a head, they, probbaly, need to be with the other students in their grade.
And I'm telling you that's not how it works in middle/elementary schools here, or anywhere I have been. There is no option to 'prove yourself' proficient in a course and move ahead to the next grade level course. The students take a preliminary EOG test at the beginning of the school year. It means NOTHING even if the students score 90%+ mastery of the subject, they can't move ahead. So, when DD tested 96% on the science pre-EOG she still had to sit through the course for the entire year...there was no option to move up to the next grade level course.
Now, if you go through special testing and score 2 grade levels ahead you may be considered for one grade advancement but there is no option for individual courses beyond that. Even getting them to do the testing is a hassle and no guarantee they will agree to move you up. Now lets say they do the testing and agree to move the student up...they score 2 levels higher but only move up one level. A 6th grader working on a 8th grade level will still end up with 7th grade course work. A 6th grader working on a 7th grade level is STUCK with 6th grade work. Period.
I'm telling you that even when kids test well enough to take Algebra in middle school they STILL funnel these kids through lower level pre-Algebra courses to boost the math EOG scores at the end of the year. We had to fight to get DD in Algebra. So our schools looks great on paper...scores very well, but when you look a little closer it is obvious that the system is designed to hold kids back and boost scores rather than meet the needs of each student.
Yes, high schools have different options...test out of some courses, on-line or summer classes...but when talking about skipping grades most people are talking about elementary and middle schools...that's where grade skipping occurs. I've never heard of anyone 'skipping' a grade in high school because it's more credit based. You can do extra work, get more credits and graduate early but it's not really the same as skipping a grade in lower school.
And I'm telling you that's not how it works in middle/elementary schools here, or anywhere I have been. There is no option to 'prove yourself' proficient in a course and move ahead to the next grade level course. The students take a preliminary EOG test at the beginning of the school year. It means NOTHING even if the students score 90%+ mastery of the subject, they can't move ahead. So, when DD tested 96% on the science pre-EOG she still had to sit through the course for the entire year...there was no option to move up to the next grade level course.
Now, if you go through special testing and score 2 grade levels ahead you may be considered for one grade advancement but there is no option for individual courses beyond that. Even getting them to do the testing is a hassle and no guarantee they will agree to move you up. Now lets say they do the testing and agree to move the student up...they score 2 levels higher but only move up one level. A 6th grader working on a 8th grade level will still end up with 7th grade course work. A 6th grader working on a 7th grade level is STUCK with 6th grade work. Period.
I'm telling you that even when kids test well enough to take Algebra in middle school they STILL funnel these kids through lower level pre-Algebra courses to boost the math EOG scores at the end of the year. We had to fight to get DD in Algebra. So our schools looks great on paper...scores very well, but when you look a little closer it is obvious that the system is designed to hold kids back and boost scores rather than meet the needs of each student.
Yes, high schools have different options...test out of some courses, on-line or summer classes...but when talking about skipping grades most people are talking about elementary and middle schools...that's where grade skipping occurs. I've never heard of anyone 'skipping' a grade in high school because it's more credit based. You can do extra work, get more credits and graduate early but it's not really the same as skipping a grade in lower school.
That's not what they are doing here. I think I'll stay here.
As a parent, I'd be fighting the school on this one. If you can prove your child is ready for the next class up, there's nothing to be gained by holding her back and no reason she can't walk to another hall to take a class, especially in middle school when you're not counting credits yet. Ever considered a lawyer? Schools, usually, roll over when faced with litigation.
The only issue I had with dd and this school is that, initially, they treated me like an over zealous mother. I kind of got the eye roll thing when I told them she's gifted. Fortunately, during the tour of the building we stopped off in the music room and I told dd to play her latest composition on the piano. From that point forward, they couldn't do enough to accomodate her. They just didn't believe me when I told them she was gifted. They needed to see for themselves.
That's not what they are doing here. I think I'll stay here.
As a parent, I'd be fighting the school on this one. If you can prove your child is ready for the next class up, there's nothing to be gained by holding her back and no reason she can't walk to another hall to take a class, especially in middle school when you're not counting credits yet. Ever considered a lawyer? Schools, usually, roll over when faced with litigation.
The only issue I had with dd and this school is that, initially, they treated me like an over zealous mother. I kind of got the eye roll thing when I told them she's gifted. Fortunately, during the tour of the building we stopped off in the music room and I told dd to play her latest composition on the piano. From that point forward, they couldn't do enough to accomodate her. They just didn't believe me when I told them she was gifted. They needed to see for themselves.
We did fight the math and got her into Algebra. Unfortunately we didn't know enough about how things worked at this school and DS got stuck in transitional Algebra and had to double up math his freshman year of high school. He was none too happy with how that all worked out.
As for the science...we didn't do anything about it...it is not this school but the district policy. DD did take matters into her own hands and learn well more than what was presented/required for the course. When the class was doing the chapter on basic astronomy she would come home and get on-line, investigating further and supplementing the work on her own. She did this the entire year and so had a great year in science...but only because she took the initiative as she has done in all of her classes. I guess it's a side effect of home schooling...education doesn't stop when you get off the bus in the afternoon. Now they are both in high school and things will be easier to manage. DS just got off the phone with his counselor and got all the classes he needed...but had to give up an elective that he wanted.
Now then, You can't say you've never heard of a school that won't advance kids who are capable. I'd bet that most middle and elementary schools are the same and that yours is the odd one out. I'd much prefer yours but we've worked with what we've got.
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). They can take a class down the next hall. The only issues are when classes conflict with other classes they need but there's, usually, some flexibility there as well. Schedule conflicts aside, a freshmen is free to walk over to the junior hall and take, say, chemistry which is normally a junior class. I teach four sections so they can choose the one that fits their schedule best.
.
I'd bet that most middle and elementary schools are the same and that yours is the odd one out. I'd much prefer yours but we've worked with what we've got.
