Profoundly gifted children and school (degree, kindergarten, public school, mathematics)
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I have a friend who has a 4 year old son who is, obviously, profoundly gifted. He's concerned with how his son will fit in and asking for advice. I'm not sure how to advise him. From what I can see, his son isn't going to fit in so I'm posting here asking your advice.
It's been apparent since this child was about 2 that there was something unusual about him. At first they thought he was autistic becasue he fixated on the alphabet but it turns out he's, extermely, intelligent. Before he was 4 he was reading chapter books, into 500 piece puzzles, had learned all 50 states and their capitals and all the countries on the globe and their captials as well as their locations and was doing math on his fingers with some kind of finger method (It's not counting, he gets his answers too quickly to be counting up to them) he invented himself.
His father is worried about how he'll fit in in school. He wants to normalize him by taking away books and educational toys and forcing hm to be with other kids his age. What would you do if this were your child to help him be more normal? I agree that socialization will be his big issue. This little guy would much rather read a book or do a puzzle than play with another child. Nothing is going to stop him academically.
I have a friend who has a 4 year old son who is, obviously, profoundly gifted. He's concerned with how his son will fit in and asking for advice. I'm not sure how to advise him. From what I can see, his son isn't going to fit in so I'm posting here asking your advice.
It's been apparent since this child was about 2 that there was something unusual about him. At first they thought he was autistic becasue he fixated on the alphabet but it turns out he's, extermely, intelligent. Before he was 4 he was reading chapter books, into 500 piece puzzles, had learned all 50 states and their capitals and all the countries on the globe and their captials as well as their locations and was doing math on his fingers with some kind of finger method (It's not counting, he gets his answers too quickly to be counting up to them) he invented himself.
His father is worried about how he'll fit in in school. He wants to normalize him by taking away books and educational toys and forcing hm to be with other kids his age. What would you do if this were your child to help him be more normal? I agree that socialization will be his big issue. This little guy would much rather read a book or do a puzzle than play with another child. Nothing is going to stop him academically.
Without knowing the boy, a good chunk of this is going to be pretty vague.
Let me start by disagreeing with your last sentence - I assure you that sufficient discouragement and frustration can stop even the brightest student academically, even if it doesn't stop his learning. That's not about this boy in particular, but about humans and frustration/depression/despair.
The father's fears are totally justified. But the father's intentions, while noble I am sure, are totally misplaced - they will simply add to the boy's frustrations while not solving the "socialization" or school problems appreciably. The boy will still be far ahead in vocabulary, he'll just be caught up in a cycle of lying to get around his father's restrictions.
The behavior of preferring to read a book or play with a puzzle rather than play with other children can come from two very different (if possibly linked) causes: the profound giftedness, as you've suggested, or from his being an introvert. Neither of those is going to be fixed by his father's taking away the books and forcing him to try to play more with his agemates. It just won't.
If he's an introvert, then groups are unlikely to be things he enjoys (though it's possible) - he gets his energy from being alone and groups wear him down. No amount of forced socializing is going to change that for the better.
If he is an extrovert, then while he is likely to crave group interaction (though it is possible he would not), there is a good chance that the intellectual stimulation he craves is not forthcoming from the children he has available to him. If they don't tease him or get frustrated by him, then I suppose it would not be actively negative - but there is a good chance that the experience of continually trying to find common ground/interests to explore with his agemates has already prompted the choice to stick to books/puzzles - I assure you, if the boy is an extrovert, it would not be a decision made lightly.
The reason I suggested that the two factors may be linked is that much of the research suggests that introverts may be disproportionately represented in the higher IQ ranges (as much as 3 introverts to 1 extrovert, though some recent studies have suggested it is not nearly so extreme as that), vs. the 1-3 ratio in the general population.
So, simply put - find the boy some intellectual peers. Having them be close to his age would be optimal, but any intellectual peer is better than none, to an immeasurable degree. It may be difficult, but the difference it will make in the boy's life will make it worthwhile.
What would I, personally, do? Avoid sticking him in the one-size-fits-all brand of education that we call public school. Either find him an appropriate education at a private school (one for profoundly gifted students), or homeschool him so that he can meet his potential. It's the same that I'd do if I had a profoundly delayed child... to stick a child of either end of the spectrum into a "normal" classroom is doing him an injustice.
ETA: Being exceptionally intelligent does not rule out some sort of pervasive developmental disorder, such as Asperger's, of course... he may be very introverted due to his high intelligence, but he could also be introverted because he has trouble with social awkwardness. I'd also have him evaluated for a developmental disorder, and work with him accordingly if it were my own child.
Please, please, please don't take his books and puzzles away - while your friend might be suggesting it with the best of intentions, in the end it would just be mean.
This is very similar to my son in so many ways with the exception that his obsession at two was with numbers and anything that had numbers (rulers, tape measures, calculators, calendars, remote controls...) and his language lagged behind. He was barely speaking by three but could read before he was four. He would opt to spell words that were difficult to pronounce as he knew it would be easier to understand. He has perfect pitch with music and can name any key you choose to play. These are skills he was born with. And yes, we knew he was different early on. I was scared to death that something was "wrong" with him. I knew all the other mothers wondered... We started him in school before he turned five. He was constantly bored as they were learning a letter a week and he was already reading chapter books. He could name any number into the millions and do multiple digit addition, subtraction and was learning multiplication. The private school he was in promised to challenge him and at the end of the day they made him do the same work as everyone else. Once completed, he was allowed to do "more" of the same. As anyone with a child like this knows, the answer is not more work, these children learn with one example and need to move on. For the next several years we tried different school and even homeschooled for a year (something I never saw myself doing but felt it was a really good year for all three of my children) when we moved to Australia. We took that year to find that school that would make a difference. We found a school with great promise and entered him in 6th grade mid year (gifted program, IQ testing, full time psychologist and complete support of individual plans for those who need it). He has now completed grade 6 and will start grade 7 in January but has full support of the mathematics department to move through the grade levels in math. He will also be allowed to move through the technology areas as he is already programming in VB. All this being said and done, he is 12 and while I wish I had done certain things differently, he is still who he was when he was 3. He is different. He knows it, those around him know it. He won a couple of awards at school and had two teachers comment on how he saw the world in his own way and opened their eyes in ways they will never forget. At times through his schooling I really believe we sacrificed academic advancement for social reasons and wish we had not. He is still that same, odd - we like to call him quirky - boy. He loves an academic challenge and is finally at a school that promotes academic competition. This works very well for him. As far as socially...he has finally made two really good, like-minded friends. He has had them over to our house (first time he has ever had friends over) and has been to theirs. He enjoys his friendships but does tire quickly of social things - emailing is his ideal method of social contact. He has never been into team sports but does quite well at track events, tennis and other individual sports. I think he will always be my quirky boy and there is little I can do to change that and as I have learned over the last 12 years, I would not want to change that. He is a confident kid, a funny kid, loves competition and others like him but he will always be different. I guess my advise to your friend would be support and love him in whatever HE wants to do - sometimes this will be hard as it does not always look "normal". I have never typed my/his story on these boards but really feel I am starting to get it - he IS different and it IS okay - and wanted to share with your friend. Acceptance is the name of the game.
What would I, personally, do? Avoid sticking him in the one-size-fits-all brand of education that we call public school. Either find him an appropriate education at a private school (one for profoundly gifted students), or homeschool him so that he can meet his potential. It's the same that I'd do if I had a profoundly delayed child... to stick a child of either end of the spectrum into a "normal" classroom is doing him an injustice.
ETA: Being exceptionally intelligent does not rule out some sort of pervasive developmental disorder, such as Asperger's, of course... he may be very introverted due to his high intelligence, but he could also be introverted because he has trouble with social awkwardness. I'd also have him evaluated for a developmental disorder, and work with him accordingly if it were my own child.
Why would you recommend homeschooling when the issue is socialization? That's the LAST thing I'd do. He needs to be with other kids. On that I agree with his father. Isolating him so he can maximize his potential would, probably, sentence him to a lonely life.
I agree on the private school but his parents are against that as well. They want him to fit in. They don't want to do anything that will further set him apart from regular kids.
He's already been screened for all forms of autism and cleared. He's just, profoundly, gifted and socially inept.
Hard to tell how he'll do at school without knowing more about the school. If dad wants him to be just like the other kids...it won't happen. He's not. He isn't ever going to be, and Dad needs to give it up.
Not that that's a bad thing, being different from the other kids. In the right atmosphere, and with a supportive, nurturing family, it won't have to be a social hindrance. But those two things are key, and it's going to take work on the parents' part to create that. It won't work try to make the child fit into a pigeonhole, no matter how much easier life would be for the grownups if he were.
I homeschool my daughter. Were a good option available, I might choose differently. The only advice I can offer is to explore every option, and choose the one which best fits the kid. And to ignore people who make pejorative remarks about "special snowflakes".
Why would you recommend homeschooling when the issue is socialization? That's the LAST thing I'd do. He needs to be with other kids.
In those circumstances, I'd push socialization in non-academic situations where he was on more even footing than his peers. Think swim lessons, karate class, youth violin lessons, and in general areas where he actually has to work a little in order to keep to the pace of the activity. Maybe something like children's choir, or an entry level kids acting class that's more about learning how to express a given emotion on stage ('now we're all going to practice screaming!') than memorizing lines. And then let him have plenty of time with the books and puzzles afterwards in order to decompress.
Please, please, please don't take his books and puzzles away - while your friend might be suggesting it with the best of intentions, in the end it would just be mean.
This is very similar to my son in so many ways with the exception that his obsession at two was with numbers and anything that had numbers (rulers, tape measures, calculators, calendars, remote controls...) and his language lagged behind. He was barely speaking by three but could read before he was four. He would opt to spell words that were difficult to pronounce as he knew it would be easier to understand. He has perfect pitch with music and can name any key you choose to play. These are skills he was born with. And yes, we knew he was different early on. I was scared to death that something was "wrong" with him. I knew all the other mothers wondered... We started him in school before he turned five. He was constantly bored as they were learning a letter a week and he was already reading chapter books. He could name any number into the millions and do multiple digit addition, subtraction and was learning multiplication. The private school he was in promised to challenge him and at the end of the day they made him do the same work as everyone else. Once completed, he was allowed to do "more" of the same. As anyone with a child like this knows, the answer is not more work, these children learn with one example and need to move on. For the next several years we tried different school and even homeschooled for a year (something I never saw myself doing but felt it was a really good year for all three of my children) when we moved to Australia. We took that year to find that school that would make a difference. We found a school with great promise and entered him in 6th grade mid year (gifted program, IQ testing, full time psychologist and complete support of individual plans for those who need it). He has now completed grade 6 and will start grade 7 in January but has full support of the mathematics department to move through the grade levels in math. He will also be allowed to move through the technology areas as he is already programming in VB. All this being said and done, he is 12 and while I wish I had done certain things differently, he is still who he was when he was 3. He is different. He knows it, those around him know it. He won a couple of awards at school and had two teachers comment on how he saw the world in his own way and opened their eyes in ways they will never forget. At times through his schooling I really believe we sacrificed academic advancement for social reasons and wish we had not. He is still that same, odd - we like to call him quirky - boy. He loves an academic challenge and is finally at a school that promotes academic competition. This works very well for him. As far as socially...he has finally made two really good, like-minded friends. He has had them over to our house (first time he has ever had friends over) and has been to theirs. He enjoys his friendships but does tire quickly of social things - emailing is his ideal method of social contact. He has never been into team sports but does quite well at track events, tennis and other individual sports. I think he will always be my quirky boy and there is little I can do to change that and as I have learned over the last 12 years, I would not want to change that. He is a confident kid, a funny kid, loves competition and others like him but he will always be different. I guess my advise to your friend would be support and love him in whatever HE wants to do - sometimes this will be hard as it does not always look "normal". I have never typed my/his story on these boards but really feel I am starting to get it - he IS different and it IS okay - and wanted to share with your friend. Acceptance is the name of the game.
He was language delayed too. That was one of the reasons he was tested early. He really wasn't talking at 2. The speach pathologist who saw him said it was ok though since he could say the alphabet and count to 100. They said that counted for more than the normal number of words a child can say at 2.
This little boy used to cry for his alphabet cards. They were his security blanket. He also went through a phase (before he was 3) where he had to spell a word beginning with every letter he saw. He'd read a street sign and then spell a word beginning with each letter in the name of the street. There's a, definite, obsession with letters and words here. He doesn't have so many quirks now. For a while, everything had to be in alphabetical order. For example, you could not drill him on the alphabet out of order by showing him a card with a letter on it and asking what it was. He'd get very upset if you did. Then he went through a phase where he was ok with you showing him the card out of order as long as he could say the alphabet up to that letter before going on. This is why they were thinking he was autistic but he seems to be outgrowing this. He's accepted that words don't have to be alphabetized.
I'm not in favor of taking away his books or the educational toys he likes. He is who he is and he is a very smart little boy. I do, however, share his father's concern about socialization. That's what's going to be the challenge for him. Academics he has in the bag.
Why would you recommend homeschooling when the issue is socialization? That's the LAST thing I'd do. He needs to be with other kids. On that I agree with his father. Isolating him so he can maximize his potential would, probably, sentence him to a lonely life.
I agree on the private school but his parents are against that as well. They want him to fit in. They don't want to do anything that will further set him apart from regular kids.
He's already been screened for all forms of autism and cleared. He's just, profoundly, gifted and socially inept.
As has been discussed numerous times on this board, homeschoolers do not live in isolation. Socialization does not only exist in the vacuum of school. *sigh*
I have a friend who has a 4 year old son who is, obviously, profoundly gifted. He's concerned with how his son will fit in and asking for advice. I'm not sure how to advise him. From what I can see, his son isn't going to fit in so I'm posting here asking your advice.
It's been apparent since this child was about 2 that there was something unusual about him. At first they thought he was autistic becasue he fixated on the alphabet but it turns out he's, extermely, intelligent. Before he was 4 he was reading chapter books, into 500 piece puzzles, had learned all 50 states and their capitals and all the countries on the globe and their captials as well as their locations and was doing math on his fingers with some kind of finger method (It's not counting, he gets his answers too quickly to be counting up to them) he invented himself.
His father is worried about how he'll fit in in school. He wants to normalize him by taking away books and educational toys and forcing hm to be with other kids his age. What would you do if this were your child to help him be more normal? I agree that socialization will be his big issue. This little guy would much rather read a book or do a puzzle than play with another child. Nothing is going to stop him academically.
I struggled for awhile before saying this.
Ivory, according to the viewpoints about giftedness you have repeatedly expressed here, your advice -- unless you are now willing to admit that you were wrong -- should be "Too bad for the kid. He should just suck it up and deal. The school functions to provide, (as you put it) a minimal education. He's not entitled to special favors. PG kids are so rare that the school shouldn't have to do anything at all. The purpose of school is to socialize. They have to learn to function in the real world and learn to be bored."
Why don't you tell your friend precisely that?
Are you willing to admit that you maybe, possibly, just may have been just a wee bit wrong?
Now...perhaps, maybe, you can see what many people have been trying to tell you: that even if PG kids may be rare, they are still here, and no, they cannot be accommodated in school by pretending their difference does not exist.
Here is some specific advice for your friend:
1. Stop lying to yourself.
Your child is different. He will never be "normal." No amount of taking away from him the things he loves and cherishes will ever make him "normal." Accept him for what he is and cease at once this futile and ultimately harmful effort to make him something he is not. This is like cutting off his feet so he'll be of normal height.
Hoagies is, as many people have said, the gold standard for gifted sites on the Web. There is, I guarantee, almost no question your friend has that Hoagies cannot answer.
They'll speak to your friend even if his child is not a Young Scholar. They're extremely helpful and kind.
4. And for God's sakes, please have him read this rather short but helpful essay: Is It a Cheetah?
What would I do with his child?
1. Homeschool.
Obviously, homeschooling is not a panacea. However, it is often the best way to meet a child's academic needs. I am one of those heretics who calmly believes socialization is wildly overrated, and who also believes socialization is accomplished in a variety of ways, some of which school provides, of course, but some of which school does not. Your friend needs to listen to his child. If his child needs or wants other children to play with, may I suggest a church group, Boy Scouts, Future Farmers, 4-H, the local YMCA, or the parks and recreation programs for children? May I also suggest a homeschooling group or network?
Also...
Please strongly suggest to your friend that he contact Davidson. Davidson, among other things, promotes social interactions among profoundly gifted kids through social events they sponsor.
2. School for PG kids
If your friend can swing it financially, there are several schools which accommodate PG kids. Most of them are at the high school level, like IMSA (Illinois Math and Science Academy), or the Davidson Academy in Reno, but they are out there, and it's very possible that they know of elementary schools which deal effectively with PG kids.
3. School with accommodations
If your friend can neither homeschool nor send him to private school, I would strongly advise him to have his child tested with either the Stanford-Binet V or an achievement test like the Woodcock-Johnson. Armed with this data, necessary to prove that he is not One Of Those Special Snowflake Parents, he will need to talk to the school and see about early admission for kindergarten. There is abundant data supporting early admission to K as being beneficial for PG kids.
He will probably need multiple grade skips. One grade skip one time will not do it. He may need to have his placement evaluated.
Another possibility is that the school could work with EPGY (Google that -- it's a program through Stanford) to provide math accommodation. Many PG parents have had success with this in the regular school.
Please let me know what your friend decides; I'm curious. I wish him well. I hope, first of all, that he's able to find a happy solution. Secondly, I do hope your compassion for him and for his child can lead you to a greater degree of understanding with regard to giftedness in schools. It's not as easy as you've been suggesting, but I believe you see that now.
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That's the LAST thing I'd do. He needs to be with other kids. On that I agree with his father. Isolating him so he can maximize his potential would, probably, sentence him to a lonely life. 
