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Old 09-27-2012, 09:20 PM
 
2,042 posts, read 2,904,513 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squarian View Post
Why on earth is there anything wrong with this? Politics is adversarial - it's about conflict of ideas. Only in America, thanks to that damned Virginian traitor's farewell speech, do we have this innate distrust of party conflict. So both sides think they're right and the other fellow's wrong? Well, sorry, old chap, that's called liberty.
Party conflict is OK and even healthy. However, when one side refuses to recognize the achievements of the other simply because of party loyalties, then I would call it petty and childish. When no compromise can be had because two sides are so deeply entrenched in their own ideologies, then nothing gets done; this is not the purpose of government as I understand it.
But that's just my take, old chap.
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:11 PM
 
Location: None of your business
5,466 posts, read 4,422,860 times
Reputation: 1179
You are right. Democrats and Liberals refuse to recognize that we can't afford another 4 more years.

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Old 09-28-2012, 06:02 AM
 
4,684 posts, read 4,573,520 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffpv View Post
Party conflict is OK and even healthy. However, when one side refuses to recognize the achievements of the other simply because of party loyalties, then I would call it petty and childish. When no compromise can be had because two sides are so deeply entrenched in their own ideologies, then nothing gets done; this is not the purpose of government as I understand it.
But that's just my take, old chap.
The problem you identify here is not with the parties; it's the system of rules the parties operate under, the constitution.* In modern democracies, deadlock is a rare condition brought about temporarily by the failure of any party to gain a legislative majority, and childish and petty behaviour by politicians is always punished at the polls.

America's antique divided structure of government makes deadlock the normal condition, and because there is no such thing as a genuinely general election, makes it possible for irresponsible politicians to hide from their actions behind the screen of "checks and gridlock".

The consequence for our political culture is rising frustration such as yours, but because the constitution is regarded as a sacred gift of Providence, that frustration is misdirected at the players when in reality they are merely conforming to the conditions established by the rule-book. Americans blame their politicians, when they should be blaming their constitution.

In short, if you want politicians to be held responsible for their actions, if you want an end to deadlock, if you're sick of nothing getting done - then adopt a parliamentary system.



* defined broadly to include conventions not present in the original 1787 document but enshrined by custom, such as the Senate filibuster or Presidential signing statements.
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Old 09-28-2012, 06:12 AM
 
Location: Long Island, NY
19,792 posts, read 13,951,723 times
Reputation: 5661
What do you mean it doesn't matter? Of course it does.

If Obama wins reelection, he will continue pro middle class policies, which translates into jobs programs and economic expansionary policies. If Romney wins, it will mean lower taxes on the wealthy coupled with slashes in programs for the middle class and needed. These are Medicare, ssa, cutting Medicaid by $800 billion, and cutting education. These are contractionary policies that will slow the economy.

Then, we will likely have two supreme court nominees.
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Old 09-28-2012, 06:17 AM
 
1,291 posts, read 2,895,640 times
Reputation: 1264
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
What do you mean it doesn't matter? Of course it does.

If Obama wins reelection, he will continue pro middle class policies, which translates into jobs programs and economic expansionary policies. If Romney wins, it will mean lower taxes on the wealthy coupled with slashes in programs for the middle class and needed. These are Medicare, ssa, cutting Medicaid by $800 billion, and cutting education. These are contractionary policies that will slow the economy.

Then, we will likely have two supreme court nominees.
barry will continue middle class policies? Name one that has actually helped the middle class.

Free handouts don't count.

I get it that those on the dole love this man, they want to stay on the dole. What I don't understand is how
anyone that works for a living can think this man is good for America.
Romney isn't much better but I don't think his ultimate goal is to turn America into a 3rd world cesspool.
barry is taking this country down a dangerous path.
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Old 09-28-2012, 06:58 AM
 
4,684 posts, read 4,573,520 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inoxkeeper View Post
barry will continue middle class policies? Name one that has actually helped the middle class.
All right... all right... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans done for us?
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Old 09-28-2012, 07:06 AM
 
2,042 posts, read 2,904,513 times
Reputation: 1546
Quote:
Originally Posted by squarian View Post
The problem you identify here is not with the parties; it's the system of rules the parties operate under, the constitution.* In modern democracies, deadlock is a rare condition brought about temporarily by the failure of any party to gain a legislative majority, and childish and petty behaviour by politicians is always punished at the polls.

America's antique divided structure of government makes deadlock the normal condition, and because there is no such thing as a genuinely general election, makes it possible for irresponsible politicians to hide from their actions behind the screen of "checks and gridlock".

The consequence for our political culture is rising frustration such as yours, but because the constitution is regarded as a sacred gift of Providence, that frustration is misdirected at the players when in reality they are merely conforming to the conditions established by the rule-book. Americans blame their politicians, when they should be blaming their constitution.

In short, if you want politicians to be held responsible for their actions, if you want an end to deadlock, if you're sick of nothing getting done - then adopt a parliamentary system.



* defined broadly to include conventions not present in the original 1787 document but enshrined by custom, such as the Senate filibuster or Presidential signing statements.
Very interesting post. Much to think about. Thank you
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Old 09-28-2012, 07:35 AM
 
Location: Long Island, NY
19,792 posts, read 13,951,723 times
Reputation: 5661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inoxkeeper View Post
barry will continue middle class policies? Name one that has actually helped the middle class.

Free handouts don't count.

I get it that those on the dole love this man, they want to stay on the dole. What I don't understand is how anyone that works for a living can think this man is good for America.
Romney isn't much better but I don't think his ultimate goal is to turn America into a 3rd world cesspool.
barry is taking this country down a dangerous path.
Medicare and Social Security are entitlement programs -- that means beneficiaries paid for them and that makes them entitled to them.

There are millions of citizens contributing to society today who once received college education grants. I am one of them.

Medicaid and Food Stamps (SNAP) are programs for the poor and they have been successful at keeping the poor both healthy and fed -- especially children. The "compassionate conservative" idea that the only way to help the poor is to let them starve a bit so they want to work, is a self-serving bankrupt idea only useful to those who never wanted these programs in the first place.

What also needs to mentioned is that these are not "handouts." They benefit the society. Helping the under privileged get medical care not only helps them but reduces the spread of diseases. Helping poor Americans with college education grants helps make us a more productive society.


And to squarian's point....


What have the Romans ever done for us - YouTube
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Old 09-28-2012, 07:55 AM
 
1,291 posts, read 2,895,640 times
Reputation: 1264
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
Medicare and Social Security are entitlement programs -- that means beneficiaries paid for them and that makes them entitled to them.

There are millions of citizens contributing to society today who once received college education grants. I am one of them.

Medicaid and Food Stamps (SNAP) are programs for the poor and they have been successful at keeping the poor both healthy and fed -- especially children. The "compassionate conservative" idea that the only way to help the poor is to let them starve a bit so they want to work, is a self-serving bankrupt idea only useful to those who never wanted these programs in the first place.

What also needs to mentioned is that these are not "handouts." They benefit the society. Helping the under privileged get medical care not only helps them but reduces the spread of diseases. Helping poor Americans with college education grants helps make us a more productive society.

You are correct. However barry had nothing to do with implementing ANY of those programs so I don't get your point?

History will not look fondly at barry's regime. It's just a shame so many are fooled by this pos.
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Old 09-28-2012, 08:56 AM
 
2,546 posts, read 6,875,896 times
Reputation: 2010
Obama would never turn things around. He is set on completely destroying America.
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