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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On
Consider his letter to the Danbury Baptists - the last paragraph:
"I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem." Thomas Jefferson
I had the understanding that a "deist" was -A religious belief holding that God created the universe and established rationally comprehensible moral and natural laws but does not intervene in human affairs through miracles or supernatural revelation.
It appears that Thomas Jefferson is acknowledging that God does intervene in the affairs of men.
It appears to me he's simply being both polite and acknowledging the Danbury Baptists' right to believe whatever they choose, especially considering the lack of context.
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,330 posts, read 54,400,252 times
Reputation: 40736
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqueg
i don't think it matters which religion any specific founder adhered to personally.
what matters is that they did not want a co-dependent relationship between religion and the state.
some, like jefferson, held to this as a matter of principle - possibly they all did. But for certain, there would never have been a usa if they had tried to designate some kind of official religious belief. The religious excesses of europe would have been fresh in all their minds. Catholics persecuting non-orthodox catholics, catholics persecuting protestants, protestants persecuting catholics, protestants persecuting other protestants, and when they needed a break, they'd all persecute jews. It's the separation of church and state that finally tamed christian fanaticism - in all the flavors in which it appeared over a period of centuries.
The me today is a reflection of europe in the 1600s. You can't imagine how grateful i am that we are largely done with that. I don't understand why so many people seem to wish to repeat it.
Consider his letter to the Danbury Baptists - the last paragraph:
"I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem." Thomas Jefferson
I had the understanding that a "deist" was -A religious belief holding that God created the universe and established rationally comprehensible moral and natural laws but does not intervene in human affairs through miracles or supernatural revelation.
It appears that Thomas Jefferson is acknowledging that God does intervene in the affairs of men.
He was a politician who took care to conform to the usages of his day, because he knew it would have been the end of his public career if he didn't. Even so, he was called an atheist, which probably made him more likely to point out that, in fact, he did believe in a god when he had a good opportunity to do so.
I think his beliefs would be more like modern Unitarian-Universalism, or possibly the original Quakers. He was specifically not Christian, since he did not recognize the triune god, and did not believe in the resurrection or any other miracles.
Republican Jeb Bush said in a weekend radio interview that he does not believe the U.S. Constitution grants a right to gay marriage, moving away from his previous urging of "respect" for all Americans on the gay and lesbian marriage issue.
This early in the game and he's already been pushed to the far right?
I guess his immigration stance could be next....
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True John Jay was quite religious.
Thomas Jefferson was however a deist.
'Jefferson wrote that “Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God.” He called the writers of the New Testament “ignorant, unlettered men” who produced “superstitions, fanaticisms, and fabrications.” He called the Apostle Paul the “first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus.” He dismissed the concept of the Trinity as “mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.” He believed that the clergy used religion as a “mere contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves” and that “in every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty.” And he wrote in a letter to John Adams that “the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.” Jefferson Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
General Ethan Allen: '"I am no Christian, except infant baptism make me one." He added that, "Prayer to God is no part of a rational religion, nor did reason ever dictate it."
'I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. ' - Thomas Paine
I am myself, a Christian, however I do not ascribe to the doctrines that government should stand against free will. And to place 19th and 20th century evangelicalism in the mouths of the founders of this country is at best, intellectually dishonest and at worst, a lie.
We do not live in a theocracy. No law regarding marriage should ascribe itself to the 'wishes of God'. There are plenty of other theocracies in the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On
You can try, but you can't rewrite history.
Except that it didn't.
You can see that by viewing The New England Primers our children used in early American education:
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ." - Patrick Henry
"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." - U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice, John Jay
From Abraham Lincoln's "Proclamation Appointing a National Fast Day," March 30, 1863:
"Whereas, the Senate of the United States devoutly recognizing the Supreme Authority and just Government of Almighty God in all the affairs of men and of nations, has, by a resolution, requested the President to designate and set apart a day for national prayer and humiliation:
And whereas, it is the duty of nations as well as of men to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God, to confess their sins and transgressions in humble sorrow yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon, and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history: that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord:
And, insomuch as we know that, by His divine law, nations like individuals are subjected to punishments and chastisements in this world may we not justly fear that the awful calamity of civil war, which now desolates the land may be but a punishment inflicted upon us for our presumptuous sins to the needful end of our national reformation as a whole people; We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of Heaven. We have been preserved these many years in peace and prosperity. We have grown in numbers, wealth and power as no other nation has ever grown. But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious Hand which preserved us in peace, and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us; and we have vainly imagined,, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us!
It behooves us then to humble ourselves before the offended Power, to confess our national sins and to pray for clemency and forgiveness. [. . . ]
All this being done, in sincerity and truth, let us then rest humbly in the hope authorized by the Divine teachings, that the united cry of the nation will be heard on high and answered with blessings no less than the pardon of our national sins and the restoration of our now divided and suffering country to its former happy condition of unity and peace.
In witness whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States to be affixed. By the President: Abraham Lincoln.
He was a politician who took care to conform to the usages of his day, because he knew it would have been the end of his public career if he didn't. Even so, he was called an atheist, which probably made him more likely to point out that, in fact, he did believe in a god when he had a good opportunity to do so.
I think his beliefs would be more like modern Unitarian-Universalism, or possibly the original Quakers. He was specifically not Christian, since he did not recognize the triune god, and did not believe in the resurrection or any other miracles.
He apparently believed in miracles as his letter thanked them and acknowledged that God did indeed intervene in a person's life. All you have left is that he was a liar, because it went too far to be pandering. And I don't believe he lied. I also don't believe he was a deist as some have said. He wouldn't have ended his letter in that fashion if that was the case.
"I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem." Thomas Jefferson
He apparently believed in miracles as his letter thanked them and acknowledged that God did indeed intervene in a person's life. All you have left is that he was a liar, because it went too far to be pandering. And I don't believe he lied. I also don't believe he was a deist as some have said. He wouldn't have ended his letter in that fashion if that was the case.
"I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem." Thomas Jefferson
Well, you can read what he says about god and religion yourself. Your library most likely has a copy of The Jefferson Bible, which includes a lot of quotes from him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible
True John Jay was quite religious.
Thomas Jefferson was however a deist.
'Jefferson wrote that “Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God.” He called the writers of the New Testament “ignorant, unlettered men” who produced “superstitions, fanaticisms, and fabrications.” He called the Apostle Paul the “first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus.” He dismissed the concept of the Trinity as “mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.” He believed that the clergy used religion as a “mere contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves” and that “in every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty.” And he wrote in a letter to John Adams that “the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.” Jefferson Bible - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
General Ethan Allen: '"I am no Christian, except infant baptism make me one." He added that, "Prayer to God is no part of a rational religion, nor did reason ever dictate it."
'I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. ' - Thomas Paine
I am myself, a Christian, however I do not ascribe to the doctrines that government should stand against free will. And to place 19th and 20th century evangelicalism in the mouths of the founders of this country is at best, intellectually dishonest and at worst, a lie.
We do not live in a theocracy. No law regarding marriage should ascribe itself to the 'wishes of God'. There are plenty of other theocracies in the world.
Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists doesn't reflect that of a Deist, although I know he has been called a Deist.
"I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem." - Thomas Jefferson
I counter your quotes above and can only view these men as those that have no respect or patience for orthodoxy in religion. They simply did not want ONE denomination to rule them all. The Constitution never says anything about separation of church and state. The Constitution states that ALL people are to exercise their religion freely. That is not referring "only" to people self-employed or those in the private sector. And it certainly does not exclude those in the government.
"To suppose that God Almighty has confined his goodness to this world, to the exclusion of all others, is much similar to the idle fancies of some individuals in this world, that they, and those of their communion or faith, are the favorites of heaven exclusively; but these are narrow and bigoted conceptions, which are degrading to a rational nature, and utterly unworthy of God, of whom we should form the most exalted ideas." - ETHAN ALLEN, Reason: The Only Oracle of Man
"Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is none more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory in itself, than this thing called Christianity. Too absurd for belief, too impossible to convince, and too inconsistent for practice, it renders the heart torpid, or produces only atheists and fanatics." - Thomas Paine
"It is altogether reasonable to conclude that the heavenly bodies, alias worlds, which move or are situate within the circle of our knowledge, as well all others throughout immensity, are each and every one of them possessed or inhabited by some intelligent agents or other, however different their sensations or manners of receiving or communicating their ideas may be from ours, or however different from each other. For why would it not have been as wise or as consistent with the perfections which we adore in God, to have neglected giving being to intelligence in this world as in those other worlds, interspersed with another of various qualities in his immense creation? And inasmuch as this world is thus replenished, we may, with the highest rational certainty infer, that as God has given us to rejoice, and adore him for our being, he has acted consistent with his goodness, in the display of his providence throughout the university of worlds." - ETHAN ALLEN, Reason: The Only Oracle of Man
Again you're overlaying latter evangelical beliefs on men who did not share them.
Nevertheless, you think the state has a place in dictating who should be able to get married off the Bible?
This is not a Christian theocracy. The state is not tied to religion, period. There are plenty of other countries you can live in, if you choose that sort of government.
Well, you can read what he says about god and religion yourself. Your library most likely has a copy of The Jefferson Bible, which includes a lot of quotes from him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible
Really, about Jefferson? You're just plain wrong.
I have read a lot of quotes by him. I know that he was raised in the Anglican Church, married in the church, attended church regularly, served on the local vestry, sent his nephew and his children to a Christian school and supported Christian causes.
I have also read that his cutting and pasting was an abridgement and not an actual Bible per se. He did this for the benefit of educating the Indians. A table of his text remains, which does include some accounts of Jesus Christ healing people.
After working my way through a whole lot of information the past few years, I think someone is not being honest in the history as a lot of his quotes AND actions contradict these so-called facts of him being a deist.
We know that history records him attending church (in the United States Capitol Building - hello!) just two days after writing his letter to the Danbury Baptists in which people try to claim he set up a "separation of church and state".
We also know that while he was in office, he gave approval for the use of space in the War Office and the Treasury building to hold church services.
I mean, really, something doesn't seem very factual on the separation issue.
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