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Baseless claim with zero proof provided and you call him a researcher? The original article of his cited no hard evidence to support any of his more broad claims. This is why the far right isn't taken seriously because they claim all this crap and can't support any of it.
Most people break laws every day the most common being speed in and rolling through stop signs and red lights to make right hand turns. In my upper middle class neighborhood we have people parking over sidewalks and in the bike lane both of which are against the law. We are living in a pick and choose law time already and if you think we aren't you are just kidding yourself. We don't prosecute people who try to obtain a gun who aren't eligible, Chicago's gun violence is absurd, illegal drug use is increasing, and the murder rate is ticking up in major cities.
You mentioned my world view but you don't know what that is. I said we should remove giving citizenship to people just because they are born on US soil. I've said elsewhere that I'm only voting against sheriff Joe because defending him is costing us too much. I love everything Joe represents as far as illegal immigration is concerned but I know the overall effect illegal immigration has is minimal. The national average for hotel housekeepers is $10 an hour which for a no skill and no education position isn't bad. The job I mentioned earlier is in countertop manufacturing which is also a no skill and no education job for $10 an hour. You can't expect to be a single income household, and support kids, with no skills and no education.
We have much bigger issues and building a wall, and even doing mass deportations, won't solve any of them.
It's nice you live in an upper middle class place. We've done well for ourselves too but that's not the issue on who breaks laws/who doesn't. The point is wages are being driven down by jobs that were once done by legal citizens and were paid more in the past until illegal labor came along. I think it's nice to think of others who are impacted by such matters, our fellow citizens, and think beyond our selves, right? Even the liberal/dem side admit illegal labor drives down wages:
It also appears you feel picking/choosing breaking laws is ok/use other law breaking examples to rationalize an anarchy type stance, ie pick and choose the laws you want. I find that scary such an attitude exists as that's a long and slippery slope. And I'm not "kidding" myself such an attitude exists as of course it exists....I'm simply bringing up the matter that it's wrong. And dangerous for the long term health of a society.
And where do you think those drugs are coming from, especially what's fueling the heroin epidemic?
As for saying the "overall effect" of illegal immigration is "minimal" and subscribe to such a premise, you just said the majority of heroin, which flows from mexico over the border unchecked/illegally, is basically a non-issue. Tell that of those families impacted by the heroin epidemic that one. Tell the people who migrate here legally/play by the rules it's all "minimal". Seriously?
And as for $ cost, just the healthcare cost and the cost to provide education for kids who are here illegally are very large. And many other expenses you might not have thought of:
Wouldn't it be nice to take all that money we are spending on people being here illegally and use it to fix the other problems you mention in our nation? I think so.
I think it's safe to say we agree to disagree. And yes, while we have other issues to address in this nation besides illegal immigration, it's not a "fix one problem/not the other kind of thing" as you frame it. Multiple issues can be addressed in this nation if the political will is there. Unfortunately, when cheap/exploited labor is needed, our bought and sold political world will make sure their donors get that labor. As for the low level jobs here that you keep saying no one else wants which I think is false because many of these jobs in the past were done by legal citizens before illegal/under the table labor drove the wages down so much(exploited under the table labor will do that every time in the reality of supply and demand), there's a legal program called Everify that provides businesses with all the temporary/foreign labor they need.
But again, when $/cheap labor is the goal, in our political system, seems they get their way and you and I and a bunch of our fellow citizens pay for it in many other ways.
With less punitive means, and being right next to the epicenter of Opiod production, Europe returns lower drug use rates overall. To me, that suggests a different approach would yield better results then jail, release, rinse, repeat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimj
So, are you for open borders then or what exactly? More of the same is not working very well that's for certain.
My contention is that the wall is a waste of time and money. Considering the economic impact Mexico actually has on Arizona, it's not smart. Governor Ducey understands how important Sonora Mexico actually is to Arizona, unlike his predecessor. Mexico contributes over 30billion dollars to our economy, it's the second largest producer of domestic agriculture, and accounts for significant business interests in Tucson.
I'm not for open borders, but I did appreciate how easy and fun Mexico used to be to go to.
Are there other means? Perhaps, but the wall is per se stupid.
It's nice you live in an upper middle class place. We've done well for ourselves too but that's not the issue on who breaks laws/who doesn't. The point is wages are being driven down by jobs that were once done by legal citizens and were paid more in the past until illegal labor came along. I think it's nice to think of others who are impacted by such matters, our fellow citizens, and think beyond our selves, right? Even the liberal/dem side admit illegal labor drives down wages:
You keep claiming this but its not true and you again argue with comments instead of facts. Keep ignoring the statistics and I will find more for you to ignore.
It also appears you feel picking/choosing breaking laws is ok/use other law breaking examples to rationalize an anarchy type stance, ie pick and choose the laws you want. I find that scary such an attitude exists as that's a long and slippery slope. And I'm not "kidding" myself such an attitude exists as of course it exists....I'm simply bringing up the matter that it's wrong. And dangerous for the long term health of a society.
I never said it is okay. What I implied was the argument that not enforcing the laws leads to that mentality is a logical fallacy. We already live in a pick and choose what laws to follow society, how does a border wall address that at all?
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64
And where do you think those drugs are coming from, especially what's fueling the heroin epidemic?
As for saying the "overall effect" of illegal immigration is "minimal" and subscribe to such a premise, you just said the majority of heroin, which flows from mexico over the border unchecked/illegally, is basically a non-issue. Tell that of those families impacted by the heroin epidemic that one. Tell the people who migrate here legally/play by the rules it's all "minimal". Seriously?
No I don't give a damn about people who choose to get caught up in drugs. Same way I don't give a damn about using the death penalty for certain offenses. I grew up as poor as it gets and I chose to not use drugs and I chose to work hard to get to where I am at. Other people choose to use drugs and ruin their lives and their families choose to ignore the signs and let it adversely effect them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64
And as for $ cost, just the healthcare cost and the cost to provide education for kids who are here illegally are very large.
Except the study you are quoting uses faulty numbers by including citizen children of illegals in its totals and over estimating the total number of children. It also wrongly estimates the cost of ESL into their education figures. There are other issues with the "study" too.
Wouldn't it be nice to take all that money we are spending on people being here illegally and use it to fix the other problems you mention in our nation? I think so.
Sure, but we will instead spend the money on border control efforts to keep them out. That money won't go toward anything else that we should work on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64
I think it's safe to say we agree to disagree.
The problem is you can't bring actual data to the argument. If you did your argument would be much more persuasive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64
And yes, while we have other issues to address in this nation besides illegal immigration, it's not a "fix one problem/not the other kind of thing" as you frame it. Multiple issues can be addressed in this nation if the political will is there. Unfortunately, when cheap/exploited labor is needed, our bought and sold political world will make sure their donors get that labor. As for the low level jobs here that you keep saying no one else wants which I think is false because many of these jobs in the past were done by legal citizens before illegal/under the table labor drove the wages down so much(exploited under the table labor will do that every time in the reality of supply and demand), there's a legal program called Everify that provides businesses with all the temporary/foreign labor they need.
But again, when $/cheap labor is the goal, in our political system, seems they get their way and you and I and a bunch of our fellow citizens pay for it in many other ways.
The point is there isn't enough evidence to support the claims that illegal immigration pushes down wages or increases unemployment. It does have a minimal impact on wages for the lowest 10% of earners who are made up of mostly high school dropouts; no I don't care about people who don't care enough about themselves to graduate high school. I do not believe in spending money to minimally help such a small portion of our society, even if Mexico pays for it we will have to force them to do it which will have an economic cost.
E-verify is the cheapest and best way to combat illegal immigration. It is essentially free since the service is already available, the wall and added border patrol costs money. I fully support pushing e-verify like we use here in AZ already and I have had to do on a few occasions as I have employees.
This is the kind of stuff that keeps me voting left/independent, though I will never vote Hillary. We should be more America first but the hatred toward some groups just makes no sense. The agenda of the right needs to change, forget about LGBTQ, get off illegal immigration. Instead they should be talking about how we can help the people of this country in real meaningful ways.
1) Reworking trade deals - they only help the top and other countries
2) Taxing the wealthy - people earning somewhere between $250k-$400k a year or more can and need to pay more
3) Reducing taxes on the people - everyone below $60k-$150k a year
4) Bolstering public education - including vouchers ala Trump but also cracking down on corruption/fraud in the private school system. Also all day kindergarden since studies show the cost to be a net gain in the long term if I remember right
5) Increasing the minimum wage - and tie it to inflation so we don't talk about it ever again
6) Mandating sick/vacation time and maternity leave
7) And a couple of other issues but most importantly they don't involve adding to the size of the government
Last edited by AZ Manager; 10-24-2016 at 02:15 PM..
With less punitive means, and being right next to the epicenter of Opiod production, Europe returns lower drug use rates overall. To me, that suggests a different approach would yield better results then jail, release, rinse, repeat.
My contention is that the wall is a waste of time and money. Considering the economic impact Mexico actually has on Arizona, it's not smart. Governor Ducey understands how important Sonora Mexico actually is to Arizona, unlike his predecessor. Mexico contributes over 30billion dollars to our economy, it's the second largest producer of domestic agriculture, and accounts for significant business interests in Tucson.
I'm not for open borders, but I did appreciate how easy and fun Mexico used to be to go to.
Are there other means? Perhaps, but the wall is per se stupid.
Did you not read the links I posted about how well walls work as a deterrant? Illegal aliens cost us $113 billion a year and that doesn't even count the billions they send back to Mexico that isn't spent in our economy. It doesn't take a math genius to see that puts us in the minus column even if Mexico does contribute $30 million to our economy (no link provided of course).
Did you not read the links I posted about how well walls work as a deterrant? Illegal aliens cost us $113 billion a year and that doesn't even count the billions they send back to Mexico that isn't spent in our economy. It doesn't take a math genius to see that puts us in the minus column even if Mexico does contribute $30 million to our economy (no link provided of course).
I'm not disagreeing that immigration is a problem, but no need to ruin trade relations with Mexico. Finding a way to have both should be the goal.
Separate immigrants from trade. Arizonas best interest is to reduce one while maintaining positive relations, making Mexico pay for a wall doesn't accomplish that.
You keep claiming this but its not true and you again argue with comments instead of facts. Keep ignoring the statistics and I will find more for you to ignore.
I never said it is okay. What I implied was the argument that not enforcing the laws leads to that mentality is a logical fallacy. We already live in a pick and choose what laws to follow society, how does a border wall address that at all?
No I don't give a damn about people who choose to get caught up in drugs. Same way I don't give a damn about using the death penalty for certain offenses. I grew up as poor as it gets and I chose to not use drugs and I chose to work hard to get to where I am at. Other people choose to use drugs and ruin their lives and their families choose to ignore the signs and let it adversely effect them.
Except the study you are quoting uses faulty numbers by including citizen children of illegals in its totals and over estimating the total number of children. It also wrongly estimates the cost of ESL into their education figures. There are other issues with the "study" too.
Sure, but we will instead spend the money on border control efforts to keep them out. That money won't go toward anything else that we should work on.
The problem is you can't bring actual data to the argument. If you did your argument would be much more persuasive.
The point is there isn't enough evidence to support the claims that illegal immigration pushes down wages or increases unemployment. It does have a minimal impact on wages for the lowest 10% of earners who are made up of mostly high school dropouts; no I don't care about people who don't care enough about themselves to graduate high school. I do not believe in spending money to minimally help such a small portion of our society, even if Mexico pays for it we will have to force them to do it which will have an economic cost.
E-verify is the cheapest and best way to combat illegal immigration. It is essentially free since the service is already available, the wall and added border patrol costs money. I fully support pushing e-verify like we use here in AZ already and I have had to do on a few occasions as I have employees.
This is the kind of stuff that keeps me voting left/independent, though I will never vote Hillary. We should be more America first but the hatred toward some groups just makes no sense. The agenda of the right needs to change, forget about LGBTQ, get off illegal immigration. Instead they should be talking about how we can help the people of this country in real meaningful ways.
1) Reworking trade deals - they only help the top and other countries
2) Taxing the wealthy - people earning somewhere between $250k-$400k a year or more can and need to pay more
3) Reducing taxes on the people - everyone below $60k-$150k a year
4) Bolstering public education - including vouchers ala Trump but also cracking down on corruption/fraud in the private school system. Also all day kindergarden since studies show the cost to be a net gain in the long term if I remember right
5) Increasing the minimum wage - and tie it to inflation so we don't talk about it ever again
6) Mandating sick/vacation time and maternity leave
7) And a couple of other issues but most importantly they don't involve adding to the size of the government
Actual data has been provided to you but you refuse to believe it. Besides, what part of illegal don't you get or care about? It makes no sense to increase the minimum wage just as long as these greedy employers have access to cheap, illegal labor. They don't have an incentive to hire Americans now and it would be even less so by making American labor even less attractive.
Remove all of the incentives for illegals to remain here and to continue to come here. Go after the employers who hire them, build the 700 mile long wall already approved by congress and enforce our laws on the books. Talks about costs vs benefits shouldn't even enter into this discussion. Our national security and well being of our own citizens are at stake here and our laws must start to mean something.
I'm not disagreeing that immigration is a problem, but no need to ruin trade relations with Mexico. Finding a way to have both should be the goal.
Separate immigrants from trade. Arizonas best interest is to reduce one while maintaining positive relations, making Mexico pay for a wall doesn't accomplish that.
Illegal aliens aren't plain ole "immigrants" so let's not confuse the issue, shall we? Enforcing our laws should not alter our trade relations with Mexico. Mexico has immigration laws also. If they have an issue with us enforcing ours then they are hypocrites and they are no friends of ours.
There are ways to make Mexico at least help pay for the wall and Trump is a good negotiator. I don't care if they do or don't just build the 700 mile wall on the most porous areas of our border that has already been approved by congress.
Did you not read the links I posted about how well walls work as a deterrant? Illegal aliens cost us $113 billion a year and that doesn't even count the billions they send back to Mexico that isn't spent in our economy. It doesn't take a math genius to see that puts us in the minus column even if Mexico does contribute $30 million to our economy (no link provided of course).
Don't waste your time as I've wasted mine. A nod is as good as a wink to a blind horse it appears. More than a few people appear to not mind illegal aliens in our nation, including those who break even more laws once here illegally, and want to stick with the status quo.
Those who migrate here legally/play by the rules are just suckers to them. They have no compassion apparently for those playing by the rules and feel it's not worth enforcing the rule of law.
Last edited by stevek64; 10-26-2016 at 09:59 PM..
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