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You can say the same about Arabs that conquered Persian Empire - that they too, "adopted superior culture," but nations are not conquered in order to supersede their conquerors, particularly when we are talking about subjugation to Islam. So obviously Turks brought with them different rules and different culture that was imposed on local population, even if Turks have absorbed some of the local culture as well.
Nations are not conquered for cultural or religious reasons but for economical reasons. The spread of Islam was only a pretext, both for Muhammad and his continuators.
Instead of making assumptions, you better get informed. Turks were pagans before 8th century and afterward, they didn't have a developed culture until they entered Anatolia.
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I'm sorry, but "Islamic music" should have come originally from Arabs, logically speaking, because that's where Islamic culture originated, and that happened long before the conquest of Byzantium by Turks.
Officially, there is no Islamic music because music is forbidden in Islam's most sacred textes, the Quran and Hadith. Throughout their history, music was tolerated in Islamic society and was even used for religious purposes, but had and has an ambivalent and ambiguous status. That is a particularity of Islamic world, which on one hand condemns some things as music or homosexuality, but on other hand they were widely spread and tolerated (in certain periods, like in the Golden age, when most of Arab love poetry was in fact pederast poetry).
For this reason, and that is very important, there is not a canon of Islamic music as there is a canon for everything else in religious practices as well as in every aspect of a Muslim's life.
For comparison, the Eastern Christian (Orthodox) music has a strict canon. Each prayer service or Canonical hour has a set of chants that must be read or sang in one of the eight modes of singing of the Orthodox music, a system called Octoechos.
Al-Farabi was Iranian or Turk living in majoritary-Christian Syria, read your link. Similarly, most "Arab" musicians (from your link with Arab music) were Persians, Syrians or from other nations with superior culture conquered by Arabs and didn't live in Arabian peninsula (and so were most of the "Arab" scientists).
But if you go further in Central Asia, the regions that were more cultured and that were more part of Islamic civilization, you'll already hear right away those familiar Arabic overtones;
And how do you explain that was spread that musical style? This rhythmed music is mostly something modern, even if the costumes are traditional. Old musical manuscripts show less rhythmed styles and not only in the Islamic world but everywhere. Also, you associate everything very rhythmed with Arab music, which is simplistic.
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Of course it is, even though it's not the "original composition" - it's based on traditional Greek Hasapiko dance.
I didn't say is not Greek but that is not representative. Most Greek traditional music is not different than other Balkan or Turkish music. As I said, they must have purged their music from the more Oriental sounding elements and they may have introduced sometimes some elements or use of instruments that would resemble the ancient Greek music, in a nationalist attempt to make a connection with their old heritage.
You simplistically believe that because the music of Sirtaki is performed at a string instrument is because of the tradition of using string instruments, including harp, since antiquity. Sirtaki was mostly popularized by the Zorba the Greek movie and since then is a more popular dance among greeks than used to be before, but is not how most Greek music sounds. Is an exception.
Nations are not conquered for cultural or religious reasons but for economical reasons. The spread of Islam was only a pretext, both for Muhammad and his continuators.
Oh, I see - so the teachings of Koran came for purely economical reasons?
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Instead of making assumptions, you better get informed. Turks were pagans before 8th century and afterward, they didn't have a developed culture until they entered Anatolia.
So? What should I exactly "get informed" about?
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Officially, there is no Islamic music because music is forbidden in Islam's most sacred textes, the Quran and Hadith.
I know that much, that's why I've mentioned that I refer to "Islamic music" when I hear those familiar Arabic tunes, no matter in what part of the world they might be heard. You do realize that the true language of Koran is Arabic, right? So no wonder why this particular culture was supposed to dominate Islamic world.
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Al-Farabi was Iranian or Turk living in majoritary-Christian Syria, read your link.
I did. According to my link,"Al-Farabi spent almost his entire life in Baghdad," which makes sense, because he was a figure from Islamic Golden Age. And Islamic Golden Age took place precisely after the conquest of Persia by Arabs, when they've submitted more developed, superior culture under Islam. So it shouldn't come as surprise that the majority of scholars ( of Islam including) were Persians, not Arabs. Hence it was a Persian, who came up with a book on "Arabian tone system."
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Listen to this Secular Byzantine music and you'll recognize where is Turkish music from:
I've listened and no, that's not "where Turkish music is from," although it was definitely was influenced by it. It's precisely what Wikipedia said - Byzantine music is one among quite a few that influenced Turkish music, but what's clearly missing from this piece - is the Arabic tunes, that are present in Turkish music)))
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And how do you explain that was spread that musical style?
Because Tajikistan (in particular) was part of Persian Empire, with very old and developed cities, that as I've already said were conquered by Arabs. That's how the influence of Arabic music came to those lands.
"With their roots stemming from the city of Balkh (then, part of Greater Khorasan)[16][17][18] the Samanids promoted the arts, giving rise to the advancement of science and literature, and thus attracted scholars such as Rudaki, Ferdowsi, and Avicenna. While under Samanid control, Bukhara was a rival to Baghdad in its glory.[8] Scholars note that the Samanids revived Persian more than the Buyids and the Saffarids, while continuing to patronize Arabic to a significant degree. Samanid Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So there we go. These are ancient lands, with a lot of historical and cultural background.
Also, you associate everything very rhythmed with Arab music, which is simplistic.
Actually - it's the opposite; I don't hear anything "rhythmed" in Arab music, it sounds rather monotonous to me, but my ear is catching their tunes very well never the less.
If anything, it sounds the most similar to Indian music. Similar, but not quite the same.
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I didn't say is not Greek but that is not representative.
In fact, it is representative.
Even if we take in consideration that the music of Byzantium did influence Turkish music as much as it influenced the Greeks, hasapiko music is showing that there is more to Greek understanding of the modern rythm and dance, as it is for all modern European nations, where for Turks ( since originally their roots are in Asia,) the elements of Byzantaine music are combined with Asian and Arabic overtones for the most part of Turkey for understandable reasons. And only in European part of it the influence of course is more European for understandable reasons as well.
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Most Greek traditional music is not different than other Balkan or Turkish music.
Are you trying to say, that Balkan and Turkish music is one and the same thing?
But it can't be by definition, because at least part of Balkan population are Slavs, and their music in nature simply can't be similar to Turkish music ( except for the cases when it has been replaced by Turkish music.)
Sure you can hear the difference with Turkish music here -
As I said, they must have purged their music from the more Oriental sounding elements and they may have introduced sometimes some elements or use of instruments that would resemble the ancient Greek music, in a nationalist attempt to make a connection with their old heritage.
Or may be, just may be, they didn't "purge" anything - that's the way their music developed naturally, without any "nationalist attempt."
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You simplistically believe that because the music of Sirtaki is performed at a string instrument is because of the tradition of using string instruments, including harp, since antiquity
No, it's you who "simplistically" believe that Sirtaki is something invented as "Greek music" out of nowhere.
But as I've said Hasapiko dance that served as a base for Sirtaki, is a Greek folk dance from Constantinople, and it originated in the Middle ages.
Oh, I see - so the teachings of Koran came for purely economical reasons?
Mainly, but not only. Muhammad also wanted to be admired and sometimes he wanted some women which according to his own (or "Allah's") teachings were forbidden to him, so Allah changed his mind and came with new revelation that allowed Muhammad to have a much wider range of women from among his relatives. This was an example. In fact, even Muslims will tell you that the verses of Quran were revealed for particular situations in Muhammad's and his followers' life.
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So? What should I exactly "get informed" about?
I was saying to stop making assuptions because what we talk about was studied already and you can find info online or in printed books.
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I did. According to my link,"Al-Farabi spent almost his entire life in Baghdad," which makes sense, because he was a figure from Islamic Golden Age. And Islamic Golden Age took place precisely after the conquest of Persia by Arabs, when they've submitted more developed, superior culture under Islam. So it shouldn't come as surprise that the majority of scholars ( of Islam including) were Persians, not Arabs. Hence it was a Persian, who came up with a book on "Arabian tone system."
Baghdad is neither in Arabic peninsula but in Iraq / ancient Mesopotamia. And music can't be Arabic or somewhat else. Is not language, but sounds.
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I've listened and no, that's not "where Turkish music is from," although it was definitely was influenced by it. It's precisely what Wikipedia said - Byzantine music is one among quite a few that influenced Turkish music, but what's clearly missing from this piece - is the Arabic tunes, that are present in Turkish music)))
I recommend you to listen old Turkish music, not pop. Is almost identical with the one form Byzantine Secular music record. Wikipedia can be an useful resource if it has references for the info (or theories) it presents, but is not the case of that article, which at your quoted paragraph has no references. How do you imagine Central Asian Turks imposed their music style over the Anatolian population, among which they may have represented under 5%? The language is something else, the process by which a ruling minority impose their language over the ruled majority is known, but in the case of music, I haven't heard. And what is Central Asian in Turkish music should resemble the Altaic music (according to your theory), which it doesn't do in much degree:
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Because Tajikistan (in particular) was part of Persian Empire, with very old and developed cities, that as I've already said were conquered by Arabs. That's how the influence of Arabic music came to those lands.
So according to you, Roma people from Balkans who (a part of them) sing "Arabic" music, suffered also the influence of conquering Arabs? Much of the contemorary folklore is polluted, is in fact modern tunes created in last decades. To listen to really old or traditional music, one needs music manuscripts. You'll be surprised how different are from what is presented today as "traditional music", because the folklore changed continuously, including in 19th-20th century.
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Are you trying to say, that Balkan and Turkish music is one and the same thing?
But it can't be by definition, because at least part of Balkan population are Slavs, and their music in nature simply can't be similar to Turkish music ( except for the cases when it has been replaced by Turkish music.)
Sure you can hear the difference with Turkish music here -
Is little in the music of Slavic peoples that were under Ottoman domination that is not found in Turkey. Croatian have not been under Turkish domination and the other video is from Northern Serbia (Banat), close to the border with Romania (the type of slow song is called Doină in Romania and is the most characteristic feature of Romanian folkloric music) , a region that too wasn't under Turkish domination (except for a period in 16-17th century) so this is why is different from Turkish music. But try to look at Bulgar, Albanian, real Greek music.
About sirtaki / hasapiko, ok, it may be as you say. In fact, Romanians have a similar dance that starts slowly and turns faster and faster and interestingly, have a similar music. Is called Ciuleandra and ethnologists consider it to originated in the Dyonisian Mysteries ritual dances.
Mainly, but not only. Muhammad also wanted to be admired and sometimes he wanted some women which according to his own (or "Allah's") teachings were forbidden to him, so Allah changed his mind and came with new revelation that allowed Muhammad to have a much wider range of women from among his relatives. This was an example. In fact, even Muslims will tell you that the verses of Quran were revealed for particular situations in Muhammad's and his followers' life.
Sure, sure, just because some guy wanted some women, which "according to his own teachings were forbidden to him," he has today about 1,6 billion followers.
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I was saying to stop making assuptions because what we talk about was studied already and you can find info online or in printed books.
And since you've read all the printed books on this subject and everything that's been ever written on-line about it, you are entitled to dictate everone your opinion. However since you are not the ultimate authority on this subject, stop telling me what I should and shouldn't do.
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Baghdad is neither in Arabic peninsula but in Iraq / ancient Mesopotamia.
Oh thank you for the news. Now read a bit about Abbasid Caliphate and you'll figure out why Baghdad is related to Arabs.
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And music can't be Arabic or somewhat else. Is not language, but sounds.
OK, here is Persian music ( already of Islamic times,) and if you read the whole text there, it explains rather well that "Many melodies and modes are related to the maqāmāt of the Turkish classical repertoire and Arabic music belonging to various Arab countries, for example Iraq. This similarity is because of the exchange of musical science that took place in the early Islamic world between Persia and her neighboring countries." So indeed there is such thing as "Islamic music," lol.
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I recommend you to listen old Turkish music, not pop. Is almost identical with the one form Byzantine Secular music record.
No it's not. It's clearly influenced by it, but "identical" it's not.
In fact let's listen to REAL Turkish music, like 1000 years old shall we?
Wikipedia can be an useful resource if it has references for the info (or theories) it presents, but is not the case of that article, which at your quoted paragraph has no references. How do you imagine Central Asian Turks imposed their music style over the Anatolian population, among which they may have represented under 5%?
The language is something else, the process by which a ruling minority impose their language over the ruled majority is known, but in the case of music, I haven't heard.
When the ruling minority wants to impose their culture, they make sure that the music that they hear everywhere is the one, that pleases their ear. It's that simple. But in case of Turks, they've definitely acquired a lot of Byzantine style, mixed with their own and Arabic tunes. ( Precisely as Wikipedia said it.)
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And what is Central Asian in Turkish music should resemble the Altaic music (according to your theory), which it doesn't do in much degree:
That's because you are going too far North. What you've posted here is typical for Siberian tribes, but talking about Turkish Turks, we really need to move more to Kazakhstan area and listen to dombra ( that's their traditional music instrument.)
Sure, sure, just because some guy wanted some women, which "according to his own teachings were forbidden to him," he has today about 1,6 billion followers.
Is a little more complicated, he was also delusional and really believed he is a prophet (after his first wife assured him about this) but after that, seeing how profitable the prophethood is, it came with everything else. Just read the Islamic textes about the life of Muhamamd (Hadith) and you'll understand that. I won't explain it more detailed because is offtopic and because you keep coming with your own beliefs formed without studying.
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And since you've read all the printed books on this subject and everything that's been ever written on-line about it, you are entitled to dictate everone your opinion. However since you are not the ultimate authority on this subject, stop telling me what I should and shouldn't do.
No. Is just that your manner of coming with your own fancy theories, without a modest preliminary study, make the discussion absurd.
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Oh thank you for the news. Now read a bit about Abbasid Caliphate and you'll figure out why Baghdad is related to Arabs.
You should have imaginated I know about that.
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OK, here is Persian music ( already of Islamic times,) and if you read the whole text there, it explains rather well that "Many melodies and modes are related to the maqāmāt of the Turkish classical repertoire and Arabic music belonging to various Arab countries, for example Iraq. This similarity is because of the exchange of musical science that took place in the early Islamic world between Persia and her neighboring countries." So indeed there is such thing as "Islamic music," lol.
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In fact let's listen to REAL Turkish music, like 1000 years old shall we?
You make your documentation and base your assumptions on descriptions and titles of Youtube videos which show how much credibility can have your theories. Dombra is not "1000 years old Turkish music", is just an instrument.
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When the ruling minority wants to impose their culture, they make sure that the music that they hear everywhere is the one, that pleases their ear.
Either you make fun or are serious with this phrase, it shows that our discussion have no reason to go further.
Is a little more complicated, he was also delusional and really believed he is a prophet (after his first wife assured him about this) but after that, seeing how profitable the prophethood is, it came with everything else. Just read the Islamic textes about the life of Muhamamd (Hadith) and you'll understand that. I won't explain it more detailed because is offtopic and because you keep coming with your own beliefs formed without studying.
No. Is just that your manner of coming with your own fancy theories, without a modest preliminary study, make the discussion absurd.
You should have imaginated I know about that.
You make your documentation and base your assumptions on descriptions and titles of Youtube videos which show how much credibility can have your theories. Dombra is not "1000 years old Turkish music", is just an instrument.
Either you make fun or are serious with this phrase, it shows that our discussion have no reason to go further.
Sorry that you are not the indisputable authority on a subject, but you are welcome to stick to your own opinion.
Sorry guys but because of greece we have the sciences,arts,theater and many thing,the first surgeries begun in ancient greece,because of them we save lifes today,and for the guy who believe that we came from africa that is the most stupiest that i read.if we all came from africa why all the races are different?what happen and that race from africa starts change?and we have black,white,yellow and red races?why some of theme are go forward and some of them can't create the basics
In europe we are indoeuropeans except the romanians,russians some of them and people from finland because their mix with mongoloid races and even if they are white like europeans the turks are not europeans
Sorry guys but because of greece we have the sciences,arts,theater and many thing,the first surgeries begun in ancient greece,because of them we save lifes today,and for the guy who believe that we came from africa that is the most stupiest that i read.if we all came from africa why all the races are different?what happen and that race from africa starts change?and we have black,white,yellow and red races?why some of theme are go forward and some of them can't create the basics
In europe we are indoeuropeans except the romanians,russians some of them and people from finland because their mix with mongoloid races and even if they are white like europeans the turks are not europeans
It's rare to see a post this long having everything in it just so incorrect.
Btw guys, even if you are talking about music and so on, I suggest you use the term "Roma" instead of "Gypsy". In many cases calling someone a Gypsy is as offensive as for example "Sp*c" or "D*go".
It's rare to see a post this long having everything in it just so incorrect.
Wait, I'll make it even better and add that Greeks have admixture of mongoloid Turkish tribes from Central Asia))) Now it's all complete.
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Btw guys, even if you are talking about music and so on, I suggest you use the term "Roma" instead of "Gypsy". In many cases calling someone a Gypsy is as offensive as for example "Sp*c" or "D*go".
I don't know, "Gypsy" is an English word, not sure about its origin, but Russians call them "tsigane" and as politically incorrect as Russians are, and as much as they are unconcerned about hurting anybody's feelings, I don't see it changing any time soon.
Oh, and speaking about Roma, I did discover indeed that they sound quite different in Balkans - yeah, again with that Eastern ( Islamic) hint to it)))
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