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Location: Near Tours, France about 47°10'N 0°25'E
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Originally Posted by MagnusPetersson
I don't know if I'm wrong here, but I imagine the American view of what "Europe" in general is and what they think is as "Europeans", is generally central and north-western Europe with living standards, culture, lifestyle, religion and climate similar to the USA but with a bit more liberal attitudes to sex, like the UK, the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, France, Germany, Switzerland, Austria etc and to some extent Scandinavia, especially Denmark.
Maybe, but that is a completly distorted view based on the fact that they expected Spain to be a sort of Old world version of Mexico... And they think spain is as different to the rest of Europe as Mexico is different from the US. The problem is that the "rest of Europe" is not one homogenous group and is not the old world the equivalent of the US in terms or lifestyle, religion, living standards, climate or anything else...
As exemple, France is as much different to the lifestyle, culture or religion of the US as Spain is.
As for the climate thing I fear once again that many Americans ( but also some Europeans from northern Europe) live under the idea that Mediterranean climates are somehow "exotic" or somehow tropical like Miami, Cuba or Porto Rico... Which is obviouly absurd since mediterranean climates are just a subdivision of temperate climate: which mean places where are winters, where it can snow, and certainly not the caribeanesque kind of exotic place with eternal summers.
Even then, mediterranean climate do not concerns all Spin. Spain has oceanic climates, and most of its mediterranean climates have actually with strong continental features (with cold winters). Only th eastern coasts and Andalucia are typically mediterranean.
Europe and its fractal geometry north, south, southeast, and west, and its lack of definition onwards the eastern continent ... again.
My impression from the Italian experience and perspective is that the standard of comparison for Europeanness is France and Germany and how that relates to dissatisfaction with the Italian state.
The European Union works mainly because the alternatives are worse. Generally speaking, northern Italians, or at least some of them, envision a Europe of the Regions, with less nation-state, but at the same time they lash at Europe when things go wrong (e.g. budget austerity and a strong euro, hurting business and manufacturing exports) while southern Italians cling to both the Italian state and the EU as if a life raft so as not to sink deeper into thousand-year Mediterranean malaise (and reaching a new low point over the past two-three years).
Ultimately, as it stands right now, Europe is still the Europe of the nation-states, the bigger and better organized the more powerful, and the bulk of power lies in the European Council, i.e. the ministers of the nation-states. In parallel, then, my impression is that most people consider their nation-state and Europe (EU) as two separate entities and they compare and contrast the two on a regular basis, flip-flopping as a function of which seems more convenient according to present circumstances, at least in northern Italy to be sure.
In general, I suppose a good question is to what extent popular attitudes and geopolitical/economic necessity will forge a closer union and a stronger EU identity.
I am willing to bet that it will be a very slow process, absent some cataclysmic accelerator (or destruction), and that the nation-state identity, as well as its institutional dominance, will linger for a while, maybe a long while.
The term "Nordic" is only about 100-120 years old. The UN officially has Northern Europe as: Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Finland, Denmark, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, UK and Ireland. I am waiting for the UK to be regarded as a "Nordic" country. I believe Nordic is not an official term at all.
Denmark is also, despite not being a part of the Scandinavian peninsula, regarded as a Scandinavian country, and also Nordic since its a part of the Nordic Council. The culture and language of Denmark (but not the geography) is Scandinavian, and the Danish language is one of the 2 East Scandianvian languages (the other one being Swedish).
"Nordic" is absolutely not the same as Northern Europe.
"The Nordics" (Norden) is Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland and Iceland (plus autonomous and overseas territories Svalbard, Faroe Islands, Ã…land Islands and Greenland). This also has an official political meaning as all these countries together forms the Nordic Council. However most people who calls themselves "Nordic" are Finns who feels that they are not Scandinavian, but somehow feels the connection and relation to their western and northern neighbors.
"Scandinavia" is strictly Sweden, Norway and Denmark, autonomous and overseas territories are NOT included. Scandinavia does not have any political meaning but is more of a cultural-linguistic region. For some reason, don't ask me why, Ã…land Islands, Faroe Islands and Iceland, despite having Scandinavian culture and speaks Scandinavian languages, are not included. Finland and Greenland though are obvious exceptions as their major languages are not related to anything Scandinavian.
I know some Swedes and Finns. The Swedes do not regard Finland as really being a part of them. They still regard it as a sort of part of Russia with language very different to their own. You have to get a plane or ship to Finland so regard it as not being a part of them. The Finns tend to have an identity problem. They are desperate to be a part of the "west" and distance themselves from Russia of which they have a massive border and are difficult to ignore.
Yes the language issue is a big thing, as your average Swede does not understand Finnish more than your average Englishman understands Japanese. However Finland is still not regarded as a being a part of the "foreign" kontinenten (the continent), even though its seen as significantly foreign compared to Norway and Denmark. Even though its true many Swedes sees it that way, its pure ignorance if you ask me cause Finland was a part of Sweden ever since the creation of the Swedish state (and even a couple of hundred years before that) and remained so until early 19th century. And even if the languages are a world apart, Finnish culture, lifestyle and living standards is way, way more similar to Sweden and Norway than it is to Russia. Its just that many Swedes who does not know much about Finland may assume that because the language is very different then other things has to be very different as well, which is not the case. Finland is more similar to Sweden than Germany or the Netherlands is.
People in northern Sweden (who lives close enough to reach Finland by car for a day trip) of course feels a much stronger connection and relation to Finland, but then it does not live many people at all in that part of Sweden.
Last edited by Helsingborgaren; 06-22-2014 at 07:10 AM..
An interesting statistic done on which nationality a Swede would want to have as a travel companion on a sunny vacation. Statics done by Travellink Sweden.
Swedes answered:
1. Norwegians (57%)
2. Danes (30%)
3. Finns (13%)
The question was also asked to 3 other Nordic nationalities.
Norwegians answered:
1. Swedes (48%)
2. Danes (47%)
3. Finns (5%)
Danes answered:
1. Norwegians (56%)
2. Swedes (37%)
3. Finns (6%)
Finns answered:
1. Swedes (37%)
2. Norwegians (35%)
3. Danes (28%)
All European countries feel closer to their neighbor than distant countries. Ask a French and he will answer he wants to travel with an Italian, British, Spanish, German, Swiss or Belgian.. And all countries feel closer to the countries with the same language root.
Nordic countries are in Europe even if they don't want to, it's not a choice, it's geographical, cultural and historical.
To answer the OP question. Of course France is in Europe. But does French think themselves as Europeans before being part of the francophonie ? No. More French people wish to go to Quebec than in any European non-french speaking country. But the same French wouldn't want Quebec to be part of the EU. Quebec is obviously American.
Switzerland isn't even part of the EU, but nobody would argue they aren't European.
Do Greenlanders consider themselves part of Europe?
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