What Is European

[Ruth4Truth]

Originally Posted by OldChina

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that the country's culture is the more important criterion. Therefore, the USA, Cuba, the Caribbean, South Africa, Israel, Russia, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, much of South and Central America, and maybe Lebanon or China should be encouraged to participate in the contest, but that Turkey or Iran ought not be

What's wrong with Turkish and Iranian culture? Where would some of the monuments of Russian culture--symphonies by Rimsky-Korsakov (Scheherezade), for example, be without the Central Asian influences?

BTW, the wheel, bronze-making, the finest horses, and some other aspects of Chinese culture came from Central Asia and Indo-Iranian people living in the far west of China, what's now Xinjiang.

[OldChina]

But I didn't say that either of those 'cultures' is wrong
And I shouldn't do, would I?

[Ruth4Truth]

Originally Posted by mrcricket300

Russians for example are Europeans who expanded into Asia about 400 years ago. I always consider them part of the European family.

Turks on the other hand are Asians/Middle Eastern who expanded into Europe. They are not Europeans genetically or culturally.

Most of the people of Turkey are Indo-Europeans. Indo-European culture and language first developed in Turkey, Anatolia, according to many scholars. The territory of Turkey much later was invaded by Turkic-speaking people, but they left mostly just their language, not their genome hardly at all.

That Indo-European farming culture from Turkey, however, contributed tremendously to the European genome and culture; that is where the knowledge of farming came from. One could say that it was a major factor in making Europe much of what it is today; it transformed a large part of a sub-continent (Europe) from hunter-gatherers to farmers.

[Ruth4Truth]

Originally Posted by OldChina

But I didn't say that either of those 'cultures' is wrong
And I shouldn't do, would I?

You said they shouldn't be included in consideration for a showcase of European culture. That implies that you think they're "wrong" or unsuitable for a venue displaying European culture. But both those countries are populated by peoples that are Indo-European at their roots.

[OldChina]

A crone squeaks for her cronies
She doesn't speak for me

[improb]

Originally Posted by OldChina

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that the country's culture is the more important criterion. Therefore, the USA, Cuba, the Caribbean, South Africa, Israel, Russia, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, much of South and Central America, and maybe Lebanon or China should be encouraged to participate in the contest, but that Turkey or Iran ought not be

European is everything which is within the border of countries who are geographically in Europe. There are different definitions but this is the one i would go for. Turkey, Caucasus countries, Russia and Kazakhstan are all partly European whether you like it or not and so is Albania despite being majority Muslim/atheist

[JedlaRoche]

Originally Posted by 640TAG

I shudder at the mention of "culture" and "Eurovision Song Contest" in the same thread.

Agreed. Why on hell a country would want to join the Eurovision ? It's a useless waste of money. Few countries sent sometimes singers representing their culture. Most only sing international pop in english.
By the way, the UK and France debate each year if they should stay or leave this contest..

[erasure]

Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth

Most of the people of Turkey are Indo-Europeans. Indo-European culture and language first developed in Turkey, Anatolia, according to many scholars. The territory of Turkey much later was invaded by Turkic-speaking people, but they left mostly just their language, not their genome hardly at all.

I am sorry Ruth, but what you are saying doesn't make much sense, when I read this;

"Turkey has been inhabited since the paleolithic age,[7] including various ancient Anatolian civilizations, Aeolian, Dorian and Ionian Greeks, Thracians, Armenians and Persians.[8][9][10] After Alexander the Great's conquest, the area was Hellenized, a process which continued under the Roman Empire and its transition into the Byzantine Empire.[9][11] The Seljuk Turks began migrating into the area in the 11th century, starting the process of Turkification, which was greatly accelerated by the Seljuk victory over the Byzantines at the Battle of Manzikert in 1071.[12] The Seljuk Sultanate of Rûm ruled Anatolia until the Mongol invasion in 1243, upon which it disintegrated into several small Turkish beyliks.[13]
Starting from the late 13th century, the Ottomans united Anatolia and created an empire encompassing much of Southeastern Europe, Western Asia and North Africa, becoming a major power in Eurasia and Africa during the early modern period. The empire reached the peak of its power between the 15th and 17th centuries, especially during the 1520–66 reign of Suleiman the Magnificent."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey

If there was anything European in this land before 11th century, the next 10 centuries wiped it off, with Islamization, Turkification - you name it, which can't be done without sizable presence of Seljuk Turks.

That Indo-European farming culture from Turkey, however, contributed tremendously to the European genome and culture; that is where the knowledge of farming came from. One could say that it was a major factor in making Europe much of what it is today; it transformed a large part of a sub-continent (Europe) from hunter-gatherers to farmers.

Yes, but it's much-much earlier times, when Turks were nowhere in the picture; it were all "Anatolian cultures" - basically still inhabited by people/nations mentioned in the bible.

[Ruth4Truth]

Originally Posted by erasure

I am sorry Ruth, but what you are saying doesn't make much sense, when I read this;

"Turkey has been inhabited since the paleolithic age,[7] including various ancient Anatolian civilizations, Aeolian, Dorian and Ionian Greeks, Thracians, Armenians and Persians.[8][9][10] After Alexander the Great's conquest, the area was Hellenized, a process which continued under the Roman Empire and its transition into the Byzantine Empire.[9][11] The Seljuk Turks began migrating into the area in the 11th century, starting the process of Turkification, which was greatly accelerated by the Seljuk victory over the Byzantines at the Battle of Manzikert in 1071.[12] The Seljuk Sultanate of Rûm ruled Anatolia until the Mongol invasion in 1243, upon which it disintegrated into several small Turkish beyliks.[13]
Starting from the late 13th century, the Ottomans united Anatolia and created an empire encompassing much of Southeastern Europe, Western Asia and North Africa, becoming a major power in Eurasia and Africa during the early modern period. The empire reached the peak of its power between the 15th and 17th centuries, especially during the 1520–66 reign of Suleiman the Magnificent."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey

If there was anything European in this land before 11th century, the next 10 centuries wiped it off, with Islamization, Turkification - you name it, which can't be done without sizable presence of Seljuk Turks.



Yes, but it's much-much earlier times, when Turks were nowhere in the picture; it were all "Anatolian cultures" - basically still inhabited by people/nations mentioned in the bible.

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. The ethnic substratum is Indo-Euro. The invaders, who became the rulers, didn't mix much with the local population, the commoners. They imposed their language, as invaders often do. But that doesn't mean that Turkey is full of Asiatics. You can see that with your own eyes.

[erasure]

Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. The ethnic substratum is Indo-Euro. The invaders, who became the rulers, didn't mix much with the local population, the commoners.

It doesn't work like that with Islam.
And Seljuk Turks were muslims.
And if they are muslims, of course the local women are going to be taken in harems.

They imposed their language, as invaders often do. But that doesn't mean that Turkey is full of Asiatics. You can see that with your own eyes.

Yes, I am looking at the pictures and that's what Turks look like to me - Europeans mixed with Asians.

https://www.google.com/search?q=turk...oh04235rZYM%3A

Sort of similar look with Caucasians.