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No bench pressing until you can do a few "correct" dips! You got to be kidding! Thank god my trainers do not have these same views. And since there are so many different variations of push-ups, who would determine which variation is the correct one? Also, people with injuries or post-surgery, like me, are going to have a greater difficulty doing bodyweight exercises.
Well to clarify, I was mostly referring to men. The requirements for women would be altered a bit. I don't expect more than 1-2% of the female population to do a dip or pull-up.
Also what I was picturing in my head was a room full of people (men, boys) who had no prior injuries, but were just simply out of shape, weak, etc (like a blank canvas). That's the subject group I was referring to when I said I wouldn't allow them to go straight to weights.
I understand that, but let's take FBI, Marines, etc out of the discussion for a minute and talk about the general civilian population, essentially the average Joe & Jane out there in society who simply want to be more fit and (as one poster put it in another thread) look great naked. This is what nearly everyone wants, more muscle & less fat. I mean very very few can actually say to themselves "Nah, I've got too much muscle" or "Nah, I'd rather not lose any fat". Bodyweight exercises are the key building block to this.
Weight training is great, but for a person to go straight into weight training without mastering basic bodyweight exercises, they are essentially skipping a step in the journey that is fitness. Weight training is actually the easy way out for a lot of people. That's why you see tons of strong guys who can't do 1 pull-up or 1 correct dip (rarely see guys go to 90 degrees).
This may sound radical, but if it was up to me and my goal was a more fit America, I wouldn't let anyone be allowed to use weights until they can prove basic proficiency in bodyweight exercises. For example, you shouldn't even be allowed to start bench pressing anything until you do at least 10 correct push-ups & at least 5 correct dips. No leg press machine until you can squat below parallel or something like that. No lat pull-down or rowing machine til you can do a few pullups....you get what I'm saying.
Are you a trainer? Just curious because I'm one and I'm always open to discussion and learning because as much as I know, I know I don't know a damned thing!
Anyways I think making sure people have good form is key but I like getting people into weights as soon as possible as long as they aren't any injuries involved. A typical progression would be squats without weight for some reps/sets, squats with the bar to get them used to the feeling and then throwing some light weight on there so they get the idea to tense their core and body and very slowly progressing from there.
But this just stirs up a though; I have a client now, typical tall guy with somewhat strong legs from soccer but relatively weak upper body; he can barely knock out 1 good form pushup. I do believe you have convinced me to start him on pushups rather than a bench press to develop his muscles a bit more...or maybe a mix of pushups and very light dumbells.
Are you a trainer? Just curious because I'm one and I'm always open to discussion and learning because as much as I know, I know I don't know a damned thing!
Anyways I think making sure people have good form is key but I like getting people into weights as soon as possible as long as they aren't any injuries involved. A typical progression would be squats without weight for some reps/sets, squats with the bar to get them used to the feeling and then throwing some light weight on there so they get the idea to tense their core and body and very slowly progressing from there.
But this just stirs up a though; I have a client now, typical tall guy with somewhat strong legs from soccer but relatively weak upper body; he can barely knock out 1 good form pushup. I do believe you have convinced me to start him on pushups rather than a bench press to develop his muscles a bit more...or maybe a mix of pushups and very light dumbells.
This is the best argument for weights. You have a guy who can barely knock out one good form pushup and you are going to start him on pushups? What is wrong with this picture? Wouldn't it make more sense to start him on very light weights as compared to having him struggle doing one pushup? Weights allow you to increase the weight in small incremental amounts, which you can't do with bodyweight exercises. This alone makes weights superior. The other advantage of weights is there are many more exercises that can be done that involve both pulling and pushing.
The only disadvantage to weights is you either have to purchase all the necessary weights, benches, racks, etc. But some of the body weight exercises mentioned here like dips and pull-ups require pull-up and dip bars. How many different upper body body weight exercises can you do that don't require equipment other than different types of pushups?
This is the best argument for weights. You have a guy who can barely knock out one good form pushup and you are going to start him on pushups? What is wrong with this picture? Wouldn't it make more sense to start him on very light weights as compared to having him struggle doing one pushup? Weights allow you to increase the weight in small incremental amounts, which you can't do with bodyweight exercises. This alone makes weights superior. The other advantage of weights is there are many more exercises that can be done that involve both pulling and pushing.
The only disadvantage to weights is you either have to purchase all the necessary weights, benches, racks, etc. But some of the body weight exercises mentioned here like dips and pull-ups require pull-up and dip bars. How many different upper body body weight exercises can you do that don't require equipment other than different types of pushups?
You can either run from your weaknesses or tackle them head on....I decided a long time ago to tackle them head on.
Are you a trainer? Just curious because I'm one and I'm always open to discussion and learning because as much as I know, I know I don't know a damned thing!
No, not a trainer, and I've got a lot to learn as well.
But when I think about bodyweight exercise, I compare them to a boxing match:
In this corner we have muscle. Muscle provides the strength for the lift.
In the other corner we have bodyfat. Bodyfat is dead weight that tries it's hardest to prevent you from accomplishing the lift. It likes to hang out in your torso area and provides nothing in terms of athletic achievement.
What I have noticed is that those who focus only on weight lifting tend to have less core strength than those who do only body weight excercises. I see guys in the gym all the time who can bench 300+ yet cant complete 3-5 pullups.
What I have noticed is that those who focus only on weight lifting tend to have less core strength than those who do only body weight excercises. I see guys in the gym all the time who can bench 300+ yet cant complete 3-5 pullups.
I think pull-ups are harder as you get heavier. It seems like it is easy for guys who are less than 100 lbs. to pump out 15 pull-ups, but much harder for someone who is over 200 lbs., regardless of how strong they are in other exercises like the bench press. It also seems like most people avoid pull-ups. I only see a handful of guys do them at my gym while everyone does the bench press and curls.
I think pull-ups are harder as you get heavier. It seems like it is easy for guys who are less than 100 lbs. to pump out 15 pull-ups, but much harder for someone who is over 200 lbs., regardless of how strong they are in other exercises like the bench press. It also seems like most people avoid pull-ups. I only see a handful of guys do them at my gym while everyone does the bench press and curls.
I see guys all the time around 185lbs bust out 10-15reps of pullups although they are a lean not bulky 185. I've also seen huge guys nearly pass out after just 10 minutes on an elliptical. I myself try to do a combo of both weight and bodyweight training mixed with cardio. Never saw the sense in being massively built if you cant even run 2 city blocks or throw more than 6-7 punches without becoming winded.
Depends on the person and goals… Me personally, I don’t do any bodyweight exercises. When I am required to do them (running PT or a PT TEST), I destroy calethenics exercises.. but that’s me. I can do pushups forever, situps, jumping jacks… etc. At 139 pounds, I can bench press (Competition bench, not ass off the seat struggling) 270 pounds, powerlift squat (parallel) 375 and ass to calf squat 315 +/-… I can also do 94 pushups in one minute and 75 situps (PT test). I can do ‘bodyweight squats’ ‘pistol squats’ and run half-marathons. I can box jump 58” at 65”. When I “Maintain” (See food diet), it’s 11-13% bodyfat. I say depends on the person because, in my opinion..
I am obviously an outlier from everyone else.
My body responds well to lifting weights (levers, muscle fiber composition, etc). I can still maintain muscle endurance and even running endurance. Due to genetics and Olympic Weightlifting, I am more flexible than 99% of the people I know.
My goals are much different than most people. Most people also train wrong. It takes years for some people to start training right, and others won’t ever train.
tommy, do you realize it's physically impossible to do 94 pushups in a minute doing a true pushup? Ive even got the BS flag at half mast on the 75 situps, if done properly. With pushups, that's 1 rep every .64 seconds, which with proper technique is pretty much impossible(chest kissing the ground on the down, arms locked out in planche, rigid planche). i dont doubt your other claims since i know you are big into lifting, but this delves into the realm of impossibility if proper form is done.
I think pull-ups are harder as you get heavier. It seems like it is easy for guys who are less than 100 lbs. to pump out 15 pull-ups, but much harder for someone who is over 200 lbs., regardless of how strong they are in other exercises like the bench press. It also seems like most people avoid pull-ups. I only see a handful of guys do them at my gym while everyone does the bench press and curls.
It really depends on what that 200 lbs consists of.
If we have 2 men:
Man A: 6'0" 200 lbs, 12% bodyfat
Man B: 6'0" 200 lbs, 20% bodyfat
Man A will be able to do more pull-ups & dips than Man B and will simply look better. I'm almost 100% confident of this claim. Muscle helps the lift, fat inhibits it. But what I couldn't tell you (based on the stats given) is which guy benches or curls more because fat doesn't play much of a role in those, it's pretty much taken out of the equation (as will all machine exercises as well). Man B could very well bench more or curl more.
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