[Retiredcoach]

I believe that despite the loan crisis and a correlation with a glut of houses being significantly reduced and still unsold, that Florida will need to correct the tax issues before a true recovery is seen. The capital expenditures of buying and sustaining a home in Florida today is probably one of the riskiest and expensive undertakings for any new homebuyer.

One of the biggest questions that I have is why do Floridians consider not having a state income tax a significant perk to living there? The wealthiest and the impoverished pay the same tolls everywhere, the same "nuisance taxes", the same "sin" taxes, the same gasoline taxes, the same percent sales tax on the things that they buy and the same millage assessments on the property that they reside. In other words, the working poor probably pay more per dollar in taxes than the many Florida millionaires.

I guess that I am perplexed why an individual who is generating hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars annually is able to benefit from SOH legislation (paying less in property taxes than a wage deprived new neighbor). Or why isn't the most equitable of all taxes (the despised income tax) levied to reduce the property taxes of all?

[Mike1306]

The most equitable of taxes is where everyone pays their fair share.
Why should those that have busted their butt to gain wealth be taxed more to support others?
I say this but they actually already do pay more. If you own a million dollar home you are going to pay $10,000's a year more than those that don't own a home.

[Magnulus]

Florida is still a red state, no matter what people will say on these forums. Even the Democrats here are centrist at best, and many border on conservative ("Dixiecrats" sums it up, there are many areas where people register Democrat and vote Republican, especially up north). It is rightwing dogma that progressive income taxes are the devil's work, so they enshrined "No income tax" into the constitution of the state long ago.

Realisticly the lack of income taxes means living in Florida can be burdensome for people on low or fixed incomes (non-wealthy retirees). It makes it attractive to the wealthy semi-retired types and people with small businesses, though. Overall I think it's restricting the state's budgets too much and forcing taxes onto people that shouldn't be paying. I don't honestly think people have thought what no income tax really does, like I said it's rightwing dogma that "income tax=evil". This isn't a small state anymore when tourism and agriculture could pay all the bills and the population was low and needed few services.

[CJFlorida]

Originally Posted by Mike Peterson

The most equitable of taxes is where everyone pays their fair share.
Why should those that have busted their butt to gain wealth be taxed more to support others?
I say this but they actually already do pay more. If you own a million dollar home you are going to pay $10,000's a year more than those that don't own a home.

Simple, the theory is that they have more to protect, utilize the infrastructure more, etc. A wealthy business owner, for example, who makes his money shipping products uses the roads more and harder than a poor person, needs more police protection for his buildings and trucks, the whole nine yards. They need educated employees so their share of property taxes towards schools should be higher.

It is not a perfect theory of course. The wealthy have more to lose than very poor people. Thus their share of taxes going towards military protection for the country is higher.

Also, in Florida, real estate is immune from lawsuits. The wealthy can put huge chunks in real estate and be protected from just about any liability.

Lets not forget that the gap between the top incomes and the rest has grown at a historic level the past 7 years. So they are doing just fine!

[Retiredcoach]

Originally Posted by Mike Peterson

The most equitable of taxes is where everyone pays their fair share.
Why should those that have busted their butt to gain wealth be taxed more to support others?
I say this but they actually already do pay more. If you own a million dollar home you are going to pay $10,000's a year more than those that don't own a home.

Mike,

I hear what you are saying, but if I am wealthy enough to pay the price of a house that has $10000 in property taxes, where is the equity of me paying $20000 for the same house because I am the new owner? I would think that as a realtor, selling a house with this end result would certainly reduce my chances of selling that home.

[randian]

Originally Posted by CJFlorida

Simple, the theory is that they have more to protect, utilize the infrastructure more, etc.

Which justifies income taxes how? If the rich have a bigger house they pay more property tax. If they have a nicer car they paid more sales tax to buy it. If the car is bigger and heavier they pay more excise and sales tax on the extra fuel they use. User taxes are fair, income taxes are not, precisely because cost is proportional to use.

Originally Posted by CJFlorida

A wealthy business owner, for example, who makes his money shipping products uses the roads more and harder than a poor person

His trucks each pay annual license fees, plus excise and sales tax for every gallon of fuel used, plus sales tax on parts and oil used for maintenance of the trucks. He uses more but pays more in return.

Originally Posted by CJFlorida

needs more police protection for his buildings and trucks, the whole nine yards.

More police protection? Since when? Cops don't patrol commercial areas much, law enforcement concentrates on residential areas. If you want protection you have to hire private security.

Originally Posted by CJFlorida

They need educated employees so their share of property taxes towards schools should be higher.

Commercial buildings already pay more property taxes than residential ones, plus commercial rents (unlike residential rents) are subject to sales tax.

Originally Posted by CJFlorida

It is not a perfect theory of course. The wealthy have more to lose than very poor people.

That justifies stealing from them?

Originally Posted by CJFlorida

Also, in Florida, real estate is immune from lawsuits. The wealthy can put huge chunks in real estate and be protected from just about any liability.

True, but so what? That's not a basis for tax policy. Besides, the non-wealthy are equally protected.

Originally Posted by CJFlorida

Lets not forget that the gap between the top incomes and the rest has grown at a historic level the past 7 years. So they are doing just fine!

"They're just fine" justifies nothing.

[randian]

Originally Posted by Magnulus

Realisticly the lack of income taxes means living in Florida can be burdensome for people on low or fixed incomes (non-wealthy retirees).

It's this kind of economic nonsense that reminds me why I despise Democrats. Not taxing people makes it better for them, not worse. If you honestly think income taxes make you better off, move to California, New York, or Connecticut. Heck, move to France. I will listen with amusement as you try to justify why your standard of living improved and why their economy is growing faster because they have an income tax.

Originally Posted by Magnulus

It makes it attractive to the wealthy semi-retired types and people with small businesses, though.

Yup, people with money. The kind of people we want to come to Florida, since they pay taxes and create jobs.

Originally Posted by Magnulus

Overall I think it's restricting the state's budgets too much and forcing taxes onto people that shouldn't be paying. I don't honestly think people have thought what no income tax really does, like I said it's rightwing dogma that "income tax=evil".

Everybody should pay taxes. Otherwise those who don't are going to vote to steal from those who do. Why bother bettering yourself when you can take from others? The budget is already too large as it is, with boatloads of fat.

I've honestly thought what "no income tax" means. It doesn't mean, as you not so subtly imply, that conservatives are stupid, mean-spirited people who hate the "poor" (whoever they are). It means we have a strong economy, low unemployment, and we attract people who want to succeed. I'm not interested in attracting people who want to leech off others. Let California take care of that.

Income tax is bad because the tax isn't related to use or cost of services.

Originally Posted by Magnulus

This isn't a small state anymore when tourism and agriculture could pay all the bills and the population was low and needed few services.

In that case, regale us with what "services" you think are needed now, but not then.

[Lilybeans]

Who in their right mind would want an income tax? It's seems pretty simple to me. We should get rid of the national income tax as well.

[randian]

Originally Posted by Lilybeans

Who in their right mind would want an income tax?

Somebody who expects never to pay it, and who expects that income tax paid by somebody else is going to reduce their own taxes. In other words, somebody who wants a free ride paid by somebody else.

[Retiredcoach]

The last thing any citizen would want to suggest is more taxes. No one wishes to pay more than they absolutely have to.... but, it is OK if someone else has to! The wealthy may pay more taxes dollar-wise in the Florida economy, but the working poor pay a much greater percentage of their incomes for taxes. Arguments can be made from both sides as to who gets a better share of the tax disbursements.

My contention is that the fairest of all taxes is the income tax, or possibly a wage tax. The tax structure employed in Florida now is making it cost prohibitive for potential new homebuyers to buy. The large inventory of Florida homes may reduce the final price of the house, but the "reassessed" property taxes, higher interest/credit limitations, and the outrageous HOI will continue to hamper the recovery process. If a more equitable taxation procedure can help sell houses (eg. implement state income tax & reduce property taxes) to make house payments more affordable, why not?