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And you base that on what -- what you get from the mass media? Are you also afraid to go to the beach when you hear about a shark attack on tv?
Let's assume, hypothetically, that cops are out of control. What do you propose to do about it, or what do you think the state or federal governments should be doing that they are not?
No more afraid, than you would be to walk alone in Latino or Black neighborhoods at night, based on those same mass media crime reports. Are you totally discounting the validity of such accounts?
Might I ask, what are you basing your belief that all cops are ethical?
Glad you asked.
1. Id start by increasing transparency of the system to the point that cops could not close ranks to protect themselves in cases of wrongdoing. That means a truly external oversight entity, one that is every bit a deterrent to unethical officer behavior as the cop force is supposed to be to the crime element in the community.
2. Id arrest cops known to have looked the other way in those cases of misbehavior, the same way that cops arrest citizens who have varying degrees of knowledge of a crime but did not divulge that info, regardless of them not being an active participant.
3. Id stop cops from illegally targeting citizens with cameras as long as those cameras did not interfere with the cops doing their duties. the hostility of cops toward footage they cant hold or control has elevated toward attacking non criminals and destroying their property. and the videos have implicated many cops and saved many citizens from trumped up charges. additionally this footage has corroborated the cops accounts of events as well.
4. Id get rid of any form of Civil forfeiture, or at minimum, disallow cops to benefit directly from it. far too much temptation and conflictive interest.
No more afraid, than you would be to walk alone in Latino or Black neighborhoods at night, based on those same mass media crime reports. Are you totally discounting the validity of such accounts?
Might I ask, what are you basing your belief that all cops are ethical?
Glad you asked.
1. Id start by increasing transparency of the system to the point that cops could not close ranks to protect themselves in cases of wrongdoing. That means a truly external oversight entity, one that is every bit a deterrent to unethical officer behavior as the cop force is supposed to be to the crime element in the community.
2. Id arrest cops known to have looked the other way in those cases of misbehavior, the same way that cops arrest citizens who have varying degrees of knowledge of a crime but did not divulge that info, regardless of them not being an active participant.
3. Id stop cops from illegally targeting citizens with cameras as long as those cameras did not interfere with the cops doing their duties. the hostility of cops toward footage they cant hold or control has elevated toward attacking non criminals and destroying their property. and the videos have implicated many cops and saved many citizens from trumped up charges. additionally this footage has corroborated the cops accounts of events as well.
4. Id get rid of any form of Civil forfeiture, or at minimum, disallow cops to benefit directly from it. far too much temptation and conflictive interest.
This would be a start.
If am careful when I walk through certain areas at night its because, growing up in NYC, I learned about the realities of the streets; I would do the same even if the media told me otherwise.
I certainly do not believe that all cops are ethical, and I know that from first hand experience also.
As to your suggestions:
1 - the system should be transparent, but no matter how transparent you make it you will never eliminate the fact that some cops "close ranks." Same thing happens in the military or anywhere else where men and women know that their lives depend on their partners, and not on public opinion.
2 - conspiring to violate the law, obstructing an investigation, destroying evidence, etc. are already criminal offenses, and cops engaging in these behaviors are presently subject to arrest and prosecution the same as civilians. The issue here, to the extent that it may exist in a particular locale, is not one of the law, but how the law is enforced. The issue is similar to that in #1 above, and its a matter of choosing the right management. That is ultimately up to the civilians who vote.
3 - there has to be a balance struck between the right of citizens to film on public property and the need for officers to conduct investigations and make arrests unimpeded by having people surround them with cell phones. There is no easy answer here, only a need for both sides to understand and accept the reality of the situation.
4 - I agree that PDs should not profit directly from civil forfeitures. The money should go into a general govt fund.
Cops are no different from other humans in character and temperament. Nevertheless, they have accepted the responsibility to do a difficult job, have agreed to be held to a high standard of conduct -- and they should be held to that. Yes, public scrutiny by civilians and insistence that the law be enforced is essential, as it is in the case of any government activity.
My problem is with those who have decided to take up the banner that all or most cops are dangerous and can be expected to abuse their power. Not only is this grossly unfair to the majority of LEOs, unrealistic, and untrue, the attitude is a self-fulfilling prophecy that actually contributes to conflicts among police and civilians. The media sells these stories for the same reason the media always sells stories -- entertainment and revenue. Not that abuse of police power does not exist -- it always has -- but to inflame the public by suggesting that cops are suddenly out of control is just profit-driven irresponsible behavior by the media. Intelligent people should know better.
Have you read that statute? It protects property owners from trespassers, vandals and people who wish to encroach on someone's rights. A store owner may ask a group of people congregating near his store to move on. They tell the store owner that they are not. Store owner can then call the police who will enforce FS 810.9.
The signs you see warning people that certain acts will not be tolerated and tha police will be asked to intervene to protect the rights of the property owner or tenant.
If you owned a business and a group of people standing outside your store was causing people to stay away from your business would you be happy about it?
So now this is an intelligence issue? anyone who looks at a problem and comes up with a view that doesn't mirror yours is short on intellect? OK. that's cute. not very original but cute just the same.
Being Military myself,I can tell you, that while there are some "cliqueish" groups, overall the UCMJ is no joke. Ive had to go to bat for individuals both black and white that I felt were being railroaded.
While cops tend to close ranks to protect their own, In the military, there is more of a "cya" or cover your ass mentality.
Cops get away with things we couldn't dream of doing. including our military cops.
Powerful Police unions are yet another huge distinction. we are two different types of animals.
Rudy Giuliani.... and others authoritatively claim that bad cops were only 5% of the force, the rest were honorable. how did he know that? did he do a survey? when a cop stops you, will he self identify as part of the 95%?
Like you, growing up in the streets also formed my opinion, not media sensationalism.
"The issue here, to the extent that it may exist in a particular locale, is not one of the law, but how the law is enforced."
EXACTLY! and here is the crux of my point. if every time they are under the spotlight, they drag up job difficulty, and we give them a pass based on how good they look in
uniform, we cant keep saying they are held to a higher standard.
Isn't there irony in the fact that cops, who do serious profiling of citizens, cant stand being judged by the unethical cops they say make up a tiny minority of their numbers?
So now this is an intelligence issue? anyone who looks at a problem and comes up with a view that doesn't mirror yours is short on intellect? OK. that's cute. not very original but cute just the same.
Being Military myself,I can tell you, that while there are some "cliqueish" groups, overall the UCMJ is no joke. Ive had to go to bat for individuals both black and white that I felt were being railroaded.
While cops tend to close ranks to protect their own, In the military, there is more of a "cya" or cover your ass mentality.
Cops get away with things we couldn't dream of doing. including our military cops.
Powerful Police unions are yet another huge distinction. we are two different types of animals.
Rudy Giuliani.... and others authoritatively claim that bad cops were only 5% of the force, the rest were honorable. how did he know that? did he do a survey? when a cop stops you, will he self identify as part of the 95%?
Like you, growing up in the streets also formed my opinion, not media sensationalism.
"The issue here, to the extent that it may exist in a particular locale, is not one of the law, but how the law is enforced."
EXACTLY! and here is the crux of my point. if every time they are under the spotlight, they drag up job difficulty, and we give them a pass based on how good they look in
uniform, we cant keep saying they are held to a higher standard.
Isn't there irony in the fact that cops, who do serious profiling of citizens, cant stand being judged by the unethical cops they say make up a tiny minority of their numbers?
You're right, the intelligence comment was unnecessary, and I retract it.
I spent 10+ years working in law enforcement, around both cops and federal agents. When you work around cops, you hear a lot of stuff that most people would be horrified to hear, but that doesn't mean that they then all run out and abuse their power. I can't say whether Rudy's 5% figure is accurate, but I'd say the number of "bad" cops, as in mean, nasty, sadistic s.o.b's, is closer to that than to what the media and public opinion currently suggest.
Now, the number of well meaning but incompetent cops is a bit higher, and it is sometimes hard to tell the difference -- did an officer fail to secure a prisoner properly in a van because he was careless or because injury was intended? The incompetent group causes more problems, but it doesn't mean that cops are out of control.
What to do? Ultimately the responsibility to set standards and clean house is that of civilian elected officials, and of those who elect them. And those who say that cops should be better screened and trained have to ask themselves whether they're willing to pay more taxes to do so.
Blaming the typical rank and file officer for what goes on in some places is no different than blaming the typical soldier for war atrocities.
You're right, the intelligence comment was unnecessary, and I retract it.
I spent 10+ years working in law enforcement, around both cops and federal agents. When you work around cops, you hear a lot of stuff that most people would be horrified to hear, but that doesn't mean that they then all run out and abuse their power. I can't say whether Rudy's 5% figure is accurate, but I'd say the number of "bad" cops, as in mean, nasty, sadistic s.o.b's, is closer to that than to what the media and public opinion currently suggest.
Now, the number of well meaning but incompetent cops is a bit higher, and it is sometimes hard to tell the difference -- did an officer fail to secure a prisoner properly in a van because he was careless or because injury was intended? The incompetent group causes more problems, but it doesn't mean that cops are out of control.
What to do? Ultimately the responsibility to set standards and clean house is that of civilian elected officials, and of those who elect them. And those who say that cops should be better screened and trained have to ask themselves whether they're willing to pay more taxes to do so.
LEOs are the enforcement arm of a system set up by politicians, and we all know how honest THEY are.
Blaming the typical rank and file officer for what goes on in some places is no different than blaming the typical soldier for war atrocities.
I agree with most of that, but I think the backdrop against which all this happens is the root of the problem.
Already jaded Americans seem to be ok with seeing other citizens dead in the street post a non lethal police engagement. I don't mean Michael Brown type incidents, but incidents where an otherwise law abiding citizen is stopped for not signalling and somehow ends up in a funeral home. far too many of these events.
Shocking numbers of people even think that if a person runs or even mouths off, this justifies a cop to end a human life.
One of the earlier posters held up the so called fairness of the system by posting links to statutes, but in the same breath, turns around and blasts that same system for releasing people who have committed crimes. I believe he used the term "vermin".
Cop misbehavior unchecked, simply enables more cop misbehavior, the best way to guarantee bad cops is to make them think no one is watching them.
LEOs are the enforcement arm of a system set up by politicians and we all know how honest THEY are.
Last edited by bela; 07-23-2015 at 02:00 PM..
Reason: rephrase
I have to admit that the comments that I read on a daily basis really make me wish I was closer to retirement. Law enforcement has never been a pleasant job, but I have to say it's gotten more unpleasant in the last year or two.
The only "us vs. them" that I primarily see is from the populace. Law enforcement is under the gun (no pun intended) every hour of every day now. No matter what they do, people accuse them of being heavy handed, corrupt, and involved in any conspiracy possible. When reading comment on news sites, or forums like this, it's not the police that are bashing citizens. It's the other way around. As I look back on this work week, none of the officers I work with shot anyone. Nobody died in their custody. In fact, none of the officers even came close to getting in any type of physical altercations. However, here is what did happen this week. One of my coworkers was in a store getting a drink. He was given a call involving some pretty serious injuries. As he was walking out, a woman told him she ended a ride home (which was a couple miles away). He told her he had to go to a call. She said it was too hot to walk so he gave her the drinks he had just bought and proceeded to his call. She called the office and wanted him fired for not doing his job. Monday, I opened up a door for a young lady as we were walking into a store. The thanks I received for it was "I can open my own door cracker pig". A coworker stopped a guy for flying down a residential street at nearly double the speed limit and during the stop was told NINE times, "**** you.... and I can say that because it's my right". I've even noticed a marked increase in the number of people that have zero problem passing a marked patrol car that is doing the speed limit. Heck, I don't even pass a marked patrol car when I am driving a marked patrol car. The bottom line is that respect is quickly disappearing from America, and it's not just in law enforcement.
The problem seems to be that many people want law enforcement to do their job and make everyone happy all the time. Being polite and non confrontational is obviously the best outcome. Lord knows that's the outcome that I want on every single citizen contact that I have. But it's not always possible. It's like asking someone to move a pile of dirt without getting the shovel dirty. Some agencies have GPS systems that set off an alert if the officer drives to fast. Some of them have zero tolerance for speeding violations even if they are going to a high priority call with their lights on. Do you really think an officer at one of those departments is going to risk getting in trouble for that? I know I wouldn't. If there is a report of a drunk driver going 80 miles an hour four miles ahead of the officer, how long do you think it would take the officer to catch the guy if the max speed he could go on the interstate was 84 without getting in trouble? Recently, on the west coast of the country, an agency with a "de escalation" policy received a call about a guy on a beach waving around a sword. They made contact with him, but weren't able to get him to drop the sword. So they packed up and left and never found the guy. But at least they didn't get slammed in the news paper and on forums like this. Unfortunately, I think this is what is going to be the norm in the very near future. My only advice to America is to be careful what you wish for, because you are in the process of getting it. And quite frankly, that deeply saddens me.
Thanks for the insight from the other side. I wonder how many of these anti-police people would step into the shoes of a LEO and do it the way they think it should be. The police are all we have between normal and chaos and the normal end has been slipping for years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JM1822
I have to admit that the comments that I read on a daily basis really make me wish I was closer to retirement. Law enforcement has never been a pleasant job, but I have to say it's gotten more unpleasant in the last year or two.
The only "us vs. them" that I primarily see is from the populace. Law enforcement is under the gun (no pun intended) every hour of every day now. No matter what they do, people accuse them of being heavy handed, corrupt, and involved in any conspiracy possible. When reading comment on news sites, or forums like this, it's not the police that are bashing citizens. It's the other way around. As I look back on this work week, none of the officers I work with shot anyone. Nobody died in their custody. In fact, none of the officers even came close to getting in any type of physical altercations. However, here is what did happen this week. One of my coworkers was in a store getting a drink. He was given a call involving some pretty serious injuries. As he was walking out, a woman told him she ended a ride home (which was a couple miles away). He told her he had to go to a call. She said it was too hot to walk so he gave her the drinks he had just bought and proceeded to his call. She called the office and wanted him fired for not doing his job. Monday, I opened up a door for a young lady as we were walking into a store. The thanks I received for it was "I can open my own door cracker pig". A coworker stopped a guy for flying down a residential street at nearly double the speed limit and during the stop was told NINE times, "**** you.... and I can say that because it's my right". I've even noticed a marked increase in the number of people that have zero problem passing a marked patrol car that is doing the speed limit. Heck, I don't even pass a marked patrol car when I am driving a marked patrol car. The bottom line is that respect is quickly disappearing from America, and it's not just in law enforcement.
The problem seems to be that many people want law enforcement to do their job and make everyone happy all the time. Being polite and non confrontational is obviously the best outcome. Lord knows that's the outcome that I want on every single citizen contact that I have. But it's not always possible. It's like asking someone to move a pile of dirt without getting the shovel dirty. Some agencies have GPS systems that set off an alert if the officer drives to fast. Some of them have zero tolerance for speeding violations even if they are going to a high priority call with their lights on. Do you really think an officer at one of those departments is going to risk getting in trouble for that? I know I wouldn't. If there is a report of a drunk driver going 80 miles an hour four miles ahead of the officer, how long do you think it would take the officer to catch the guy if the max speed he could go on the interstate was 84 without getting in trouble? Recently, on the west coast of the country, an agency with a "de escalation" policy received a call about a guy on a beach waving around a sword. They made contact with him, but weren't able to get him to drop the sword. So they packed up and left and never found the guy. But at least they didn't get slammed in the news paper and on forums like this. Unfortunately, I think this is what is going to be the norm in the very near future. My only advice to America is to be careful what you wish for, because you are in the process of getting it. And quite frankly, that deeply saddens me.
WEhat do cop haters do when they are victims of crime?? Do they just blow it off as if it is just the way it is or do they dial 911?
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