[Shores9]

Reading about the economy, jobs, retail sales, corporate reallocations, plant closings, bailouts, etc… one word being used frequently these days – Implosion!!

Used to be honest day’s work honest day’s pay – watch out for your neighbor – have pride in the things you own and take care of them… and all was good!!

These old value seems to be gone – instead of smiling at your neighbor and saying hello we forward an email to 10 people to get an instant blessing (how absurd)

The nature or mindset of today’s average person has moved towards extreme and irrational expectations. I-Me… need to have it now… need to make a killing – don’t worry… throw it away will get another tomorrow. And of course because I paid 20-30k a year for an undergrad I should make 100k first year out.

I could say the current dilemma started in housing – First by greed driving prices irrationally high. Now - and for those of you who cheered the loudest for an irrational correction - we have a housing implosion. But I think it really started with a shift in values - Lack of values produced the same greed that brought us up and it’s now pulling us under

I think our values have imploded

As such things in this country are about to get really tough – much tougher (and for much longer) than many expect or have ever seen. And here in FLA we’re screwed.

However as a consolation prize for all those who cheered on the housing bust --- houses are cheap and getting cheaper – I just don’t know how importation it is anymore.

Would someone care to put up a poll to see what folks on the Florida forum think are more important?

1- Getting a job or not losing your job
2- Food on the table
3- Shelter (of any nature)
4- 1 through 3
5- Lower house prices

[On-da-Beach]

A recent seminar taught me why the workforce has changed so much. When I grew up, jobs were hard to get and were valued. You were proud to have a job and proud of the things you earned because of your job.
Values were:
1-Job
2-Family
3-Fun

Today's generation has had life very differently. Disposable society caused by huge advancements in technology and jobs are a dime a dozen. If you don't like your job, pay, boss, hours or whatever...Quit! Then go get another job that same day since everyplace is looking for help.
Values now:
1-Fun
2-Family
3-Job

However, with the change in economy, there may be a new attitude about employment and how much your job means to you.

I'm saying that I agree with the thread/post but I don't think it involves Florida exclusively.

[Muggy]

-

[Wild Style]

on da beach

I will never understand this Stockholm syndrome that Americans have. Where they identify with their abuser and blame themselves. Corporate America is filled with savages running these businesses who abuse and don't care about their workers. So of course there is going to be little regard for your work/job/employer. Employers lay off at the drop of a dime. Threaten employees and do little to make their workers feel like a extended family. It is all about the bottom line. As for America's society, it has been on decline for a LONG time.

Also these golden years people speak of wasnt so golden. Along with caring about your neighbor and having true sense of community, you also had blinding racism that fractured our society. Until people in this country look at their fellow citzens as countrymen and realize we are all in the same boat, crap is not going to change here. Good thing (if you want to look at it that way), everyone is going to be on a equal playingful by the time this is all said and done. Will people group up accourding to race or some other ignorant factor during these times or will they band together as countrymen to better our society? Who knows, but this is going to be a interesting ride, thats for darn sure.

The guys in chicago who refused to leave the factory they were laid off from did give me hope though. Black, Latino and White stood together for a common cause. I hope we see more of that, if we do we MAY have a chance of actually realizing a just society.

[JimMe]

Originally Posted by Shores9

Reading about the economy, jobs, retail sales, corporate reallocations, plant closings, bailouts, etc… one word being used frequently these days – Implosion!!

Used to be honest day’s work honest day’s pay – watch out for your neighbor – have pride in the things you own and take care of them… and all was good!!

These old value seems to be gone – instead of smiling at your neighbor and saying hello we forward an email to 10 people to get an instant blessing (how absurd)

The nature or mindset of today’s average person has moved towards extreme and irrational expectations. I-Me… need to have it now… need to make a killing – don’t worry… throw it away will get another tomorrow. And of course because I paid 20-30k a year for an undergrad I should make 100k first year out.

I could say the current dilemma started in housing – First by greed driving prices irrationally high. Now - and for those of you who cheered the loudest for an irrational correction - we have a housing implosion. But I think it really started with a shift in values - Lack of values produced the same greed that brought us up and it’s now pulling us under

I think our values have imploded

As such things in this country are about to get really tough – much tougher (and for much longer) than many expect or have ever seen. And here in FLA we’re screwed.

However as a consolation prize for all those who cheered on the housing bust --- houses are cheap and getting cheaper – I just don’t know how importation it is anymore.

Would someone care to put up a poll to see what folks on the Florida forum think are more important?

1- Getting a job or not losing your job
2- Food on the table
3- Shelter (of any nature)
4- 1 through 3
5- Lower house prices

I can't disagree. We have no one to blame for the mess we are in but ourselves. We are all the "victims" of a giant con. And you know what they say about someone who gets conned: you can't con an honest man.

We saw evidence of that recently with the fall of Bernard Madoff, the financial investor. He conned individual investors and institutions of 50 billion dollars. How? By promising something for nothing. He promised a minimum 10% return on investment with no risk. Too good to be true? You bet. But as long as he was delivering no one wanted to know how he was doing it. Turns out it was one big ponzi scheme. Now that the scam has been exposed people are shocked! Shocked! Give me a break! Do I feel sorry for these investors? Not a bit. Their greed blinded them to the obvious--there is no such thing as investing without risk.

But Bernard Madoff is a piker con artist compared to the U.S. Congress. The whole housing market was a ponzi scheme created by Congress and we bought into it. Congress created the illusion that people could be put into homes they could not afford without someone having to pay the piper at some point down the line. They mandated that banks--which are normally very conservative money managers--lend money to people to buy homes that the banks knew would probably not be able to repay those loans. When the banks protested Congress mandated that Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac purchase these risky loans from the banks with the implicit promise that if they went sour the taxpayer would bail them out. The banks and Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac, having been handed lemons by Congress, decided to make lemonade out of them. The worthless loans were securitized and sold as commodities. They figured out they could make money on volume and so abandoned customary banking caution and piled on the pyramid. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac did likewise and the CEO's of these companies made millions--correct that--tens of millions. Until the whole ponzi scheme collapsed and guess who was left holding the bag? The taxpayer got conned.

Again, do I feel sorry for the taxpayer? Not a bit. We are the ones who elect the bozos who promise us that "the government" will sovlve all our social and economic woes. And it won't cost us a thing. We'll just tax the "rich." Well I can guarantee you that it won't only be "the rich" that will be paying the 2 trillion-plus tab for this debacle. It'll be you and me and--more importantly-- our kids, grand kids and great grand kids.

Our Founding Fathers understood that for a democracy to succeed it needed a moral citizenry. They were rugged individualists who did not see government as the answer to all our problems but a necessary evil whose powers neeeded to be strictly circumscribed. Unfortunately in recent years (beginning with the Great Depression) we've turned away from the wisdom of the Founders and listened to the siren song of politicians--the ultimate con artists--who promised to take care of our every need at no cost to us. We want to be taken care of. So how is government doing so far?

[rogercobb]

Originally Posted by JimMe

I can't disagree. We have no one to blame for the mess we are in but ourselves. We are all the "victims" of a giant con. And you know what they say about someone who gets conned: you can't con an honest man.

We saw evidence of that recently with the fall of Bernard Madoff, the financial investor. He conned individual investors and institutions of 50 billion dollars. How? By promising something for nothing. He promised a minimum 10% return on investment with no risk. Too good to be true? You bet. But as long as he was delivering no one wanted to know how he was doing it. Turns out it was one big ponzi scheme. Now that the scam has been exposed people are shocked! Shocked! Give me a break! Do I feel sorry for these investors? Not a bit. Their greed blinded them to the obvious--there is no such thing as investing without risk.

But Bernard Madoff is a piker con artist compared to the U.S. Congress. The whole housing market was a ponzi scheme created by Congress and we bought into it. Congress created the illusion that people could be put into homes they could not afford without someone having to pay the piper at some point down the line. They mandated that banks--which are normally very conservative money managers--lend money to people to buy homes that the banks knew would probably not be able to repay those loans. When the banks protested Congress mandated that Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac purchase these risky loans from the banks with the implicit promise that if they went sour the taxpayer would bail them out. The banks and Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac, having been handed lemons by Congress, decided to make lemonade out of them. The worthless loans were securitized and sold as commodities. They figured out they could make money on volume and so abandoned customary banking caution and piled on the pyramid. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac did likewise and the CEO's of these companies made millions--correct that--tens of millions. Until the whole ponzi scheme collapsed and guess who was left holding the bag? The taxpayer got conned.

Again, do I feel sorry for the taxpayer? Not a bit. We are the ones who elect the bozos who promise us that "the government" will sovlve all our social and economic woes. And it won't cost us a thing. We'll just tax the "rich." Well I can guarantee you that it won't only be "the rich" that will be paying the 2 trillion-plus tab for this debacle. It'll be you and me and--more importantly-- our kids, grand kids and great grand kids.

Our Founding Fathers understood that for a democracy to succeed it needed a moral citizenry. They were rugged individualists who did not see government as the answer to all our problems but a necessary evil whose powers neeeded to be strictly circumscribed. Unfortunately in recent years (beginning with the Great Depression) we've turned away from the wisdom of the Founders and listened to the siren song of politicians--the ultimate con artists--who promised to take care of our every need at no cost to us. We want to be taken care of. So how is government doing so far?

My thoughts exactly. I love it when the politicians and idiot voters think taxing the rich will solve the crisis. What will happen, eventually, is the rich will leave high tax states like CA, NY, and Mass. for the cheaper more affordable South and Midwest. When the tax burden at the federal level becomes too large the wealthy will leave the United States. And shame on Congress for creating a ponzi scheme just like Madoff did. That won't get any news coverage!

[imagardener]

Originally Posted by On-da-Beach

...I'm saying that I agree with the thread/post but I don't think it involves Florida exclusively.

Well Florida is more at risk than other states because the economy is based on real estate and tourism and also because MANY of the homes here are second homes. When push comes to shove people will cut loose non-essentials (second home/winter vacation) and hunker down. If you think the worst has passed just wait til 2009.

I have posted this on another thread but go to the library and read "Web of Debt" which explains how this country is actually run money-wise, it's not what you think. The author is not a crackpot and I've never seen so many people review a book so highly with so few negative reviews (amazon). I bought it for my DH and he keeps reading parts aloud he's so interested in it.

Just one tidbit: you probably think the "Federal Reserve" is a U.S. governmental department. It is not at all. It is owned by private banks and they TELL the U.S. Treasury how much money to print. Amazing.

And not to be even more scary but I heard firsthand that FL gunshops cannot keep shotguns (preferred home defense weapon) in stock. They have waiting lists and the gun manufacturers are working around the clock to meet demand.

[Big House]

If you want to boil it down to a simpler form. . .
All governments, regardless of their form, protect their citizenry, and draw from their the wealth of their citizenry to any extent needed in order to support the policies and programs of the government. So regardless of the soundness or the abysmal failure of its policies or programs, it is the citizenry that are going to pay either voluntarily, or by extraction.

And, It doesn't matter whether the form rule is:
organized crime,
Communism,
Capitalism,
the Huns,
Islamic Republic,
the Vikings,
the Nazis,
the Romans,
tribalism,
communalism,
the Feudal Lords and their peasants, or the many other forms that have evolved thoughout history.

One other thought, everyone complains about the greed that caused this huge inflation spiral that caused housing prices to sky rocket beyond an unsupportable level. Well, it is also greed that is keeping the banks and financial institutions from lending right now adding to this huge deflationary spiral, and it is also greed that is keeping people that want to buy from buying what are already hugely deflated deals - unless they feel they can steal it for 30% on the dollar.

It is the weak and vulnerable that suffer the most - just like nature intended. But, we are taught that we can do things differently - lets prove it! A pack of wolves would not burden their pups with their battles, they'd protect them with their dying breath, but we pass it all on to our next generation - but it is getting to the point that, and we will all soon discover that, WE ARE the next generation, and all our failed policies can no longer be passed along.

Ok, now I gotta go find something fun to write about, cuz knowing and seeing this all transpire is really tough for me - cuz I care too much.

[imagardener]

Originally Posted by Big House

...A pack of wolves would not burden their pups with their battles, they'd protect them with their dying breath, but we pass it all on to our next generation - but it is getting to the point that, and we will all about discover, WE ARE the next generation, and it (all our failed policies) can no longer be passed along.

I agree with you BUT I have seen on a small scale that human packs WILL burden their pups having moved from an HOA in Naples. It has been amazing to me to see the direct similarities between that small community and the current crisis.

They (the HOA) had no reserves (NO RESERVES!), 25 year old common property at the end of useful life and in dire need of repair and the board of directors, supported by a loud minority, spends owners money on frivolous stuff like adding a new expensive tennis court and voted down putting any money in a Reserve account.

The attitude is "I'm old, let's spend money on things that I can enjoy now and let the next set of owners fix up the place."

Isn't that exactly the current national attitude (maybe without the "old" part)?

I am so glad Obama won and wish his team well in trying to fix what is wrong. It will take a miracle.

[floridasandy]

i just don't see where the new course is not an extension of the old course. obama says now that he will not tax but also is embarking on a giant spending program, even worse than our last 8 year spending spree, so this seems to be just a continuation of bad republican and bad democratic policy. the good news is that if the bottom falls out florida is going to be a desirable state to live in (either renting or owning) because of the lower tax structure, areas of affordable housing, and the weather.
i don't understand why anybody would live in a HOA since it is just another layer of control and part of the reason people buy houses, instead of renting, is to control their own destiny.