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Old 08-19-2012, 05:29 AM
 
Location: Weymouth, The South
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Urban Areas have minimum requirement pertaining to density. Every city in the nation must have a significantly sized built up area which is excluded from the UA that does not fit those criteria. I'm basically asking if there are figures anywhere about for larger areas for each city which include all contiguous, or near contiguous areas with a density of, maybe 50 people per square mile?
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceTenmile View Post
Urban Areas have minimum requirement pertaining to density. Every city in the nation must have a significantly sized built up area which is excluded from the UA that does not fit those criteria. I'm basically asking if there are figures anywhere about for larger areas for each city which include all contiguous, or near contiguous areas with a density of, maybe 50 people per square mile?
Interesting question. North Jersey would be such an area--it's endless suburbs for miles and miles with no spaces between towns, but it's also primarily single-family houses with good-sized yards and lots of trees, not an urban-type area at all, but not exactly rural, either. It's much more than 50 people per square mile, though.
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:57 AM
 
Location: Up on the moon laughing down on you
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
Interesting question. North Jersey would be such an area--it's endless suburbs for miles and miles with no spaces between towns, but it's also primarily single-family houses with good-sized yards and lots of trees, not an urban-type area at all, but not exactly rural, either. It's much more than 50 people per square mile, though.
burbs would have a density far higher than that 50ppsm the OP is asking. The entire state of New Jersey has an average density of over 1000 ppsm.

50 ppsm would be darn near rural.


people don't understand that burbs can easily get to 8000ppsm just by single family homes. Don't know why people seem to think that burbs are lower than 1000ppsm.


Think of it this way. there are almost 7B people on Earth. The Earth is about 195M square miles. So the average Density for the whole world including all the deserts, oceans, mountains etc is about 40 ppsm

Having a density of 50ppsm would probably just about link up the entire United States (not entirely but surely in strips of development). The State of Texas has a density of 100 ppsm. Alaska, Wyoming, Montana and North Dakota all have densities less than 10 ppsm.

The United States as a whole has a density of 90 ppsm.

MS and AR are the only Southern States below the US average. Maine, West Virginia and Vermont are the only NE states below the US Average. All the rest are either in the Midwest or the West
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:57 AM
 
Location: Jacksonville, FL
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I think the closest type of geography to what you are talking about would be the Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA). But it includes both urban and rural areas. An MSA is basically one or more contiguous counties that share the same economic core or principal city.
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:16 AM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
Interesting question. North Jersey would be such an area--it's endless suburbs for miles and miles with no spaces between towns, but it's also primarily single-family houses with good-sized yards and lots of trees, not an urban-type area at all, but not exactly rural, either. It's much more than 50 people per square mile, though.
North Jersey is definitely within the NYC urban area, except for maybe parts of the westernmost counties (like Sussex).
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:17 AM
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Location: Long Island / NYC
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urban areas usually include small pockets below 1000 / sq mile if they are completely enclosed by higher density portions. I don't remember the exact definition, but looking at maps of urban areas you can tell some lower density portions are enclosed.
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:34 AM
 
Location: The City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
urban areas usually include small pockets below 1000 / sq mile if they are completely enclosed by higher density portions. I don't remember the exact definition, but looking at maps of urban areas you can tell some lower density portions are enclosed.

Is done by tract, the density of a tract has to be above 1,000 there are jumps aloowed that are less than a mile so long as it connects/is sorrounded by UA qualifying tracts.

UAs also stop at MSA lines. For example Trenton NJ is not included in the Philly UA yet has sustained 7K plus density (actually 13K on the trento side) all the way through

UA on the whole is probably the best metric on developed footprint

50 ppsm is pretty sparce. 1,000 ppsm is actually pretty sparce
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:36 AM
 
Location: The City
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https://www.federalregister.gov/arti...he-2010-census

Back in August the US Census was conducting their studies (and taking personal responses from American people) on their new definition for "Urban Areas" (UA's). The following screenshots, are their ideas so far taken with the 2008 estimates for all the areas, so for places that saw an "undercount" at MSA & CSA level compared to their 2008 & 2009 estimates will see an "undercount" compared to this picture below too. There is definitely going to be alterations in the numbers, but nothing more than like 200,000-400,000 at the most for any of these places.



Glimpse of What the New Urban Area's (UA) will look like in 2010: New York approaching 30 Million
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
North Jersey is definitely within the NYC urban area, except for maybe parts of the westernmost counties (like Sussex).
Um, yeah, I know, I've lived there for more than 50 years.

OK, maybe I'm missing the OP's point. Yes, North Jersey is within the NYC metro/urban area, but most of it would not be considered "urban", at least maybe what I consider urban. To me, "urban" denotes a city-type atmosphere, multi-story/multi-family buildings close together, not grass and parks and trees and single-family homes, which is what Northern NJ primarily is. It is built up, but not urban. I was reading it as a place where there is continuous development, which defines NNJ, as opposed to other parts of the country where you drive through a town, leave a town, drive through some empty space, come to another town...

Anyway, I see that's not what the OP meant. And yes, it's DEFINITELY far more than 50 ppsm!

Carry on.
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Old 08-19-2012, 11:02 AM
 
Location: Weymouth, The South
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
Interesting question. North Jersey would be such an area--it's endless suburbs for miles and miles with no spaces between towns, but it's also primarily single-family houses with good-sized yards and lots of trees, not an urban-type area at all, but not exactly rural, either. It's much more than 50 people per square mile, though.
50 ppsm was just a figure I pulled out of the air, but I clearly miscalculated. Maybe more like 500 or 250? I'm talking about how far a built up are sprawls before it stops being relatively small lot abutting lot. Where you stop getting a house every 50m or less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nep321 View Post
I think the closest type of geography to what you are talking about would be the Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA). But it includes both urban and rural areas. An MSA is basically one or more contiguous counties that share the same economic core or principal city.
I know there are some people on here who pop up and as their first post ask something stupid like what the largest city in the US is, but I'm not one of those. Whilst MSAs have their uses, they're not in any way what I'm looking for here. As you say, they include rural areas, and perhaps it was my stupidly low ppsm requirement which led you to suggest an MSA, but no. That was my bad, and as the title suggests, I'm looking for areas which are more or less contiguous built up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
Um, yeah, I know, I've lived there for more than 50 years.

OK, maybe I'm missing the OP's point. Yes, North Jersey is within the NYC metro/urban area, but most of it would not be considered "urban", at least maybe what I consider urban. To me, "urban" denotes a city-type atmosphere, multi-story/multi-family buildings close together, not grass and parks and trees and single-family homes, which is what Northern NJ primarily is. It is built up, but not urban. I was reading it as a place where there is continuous development, which defines NNJ, as opposed to other parts of the country where you drive through a town, leave a town, drive through some empty space, come to another town...

Anyway, I see that's not what the OP meant. And yes, it's DEFINITELY far more than 50 ppsm!

Carry on.
Yes, I'm not looking for urban areas, as I said, I am exactly looking for figures for areas that are continuously built up without much or any gap.


Once again, maybe 500 or 250 ppsm is a better number?


I think it's pretty stupid how UAs are split along MSA lines. If they didn't have this arbitrary splitting, there would be a single urban area spanning all the way from New Castle County, DE to Springfield, MA. Would an area of only 250 or 500 ppsm stretch even further than this? Would it connect with Boston and Baltimore in some places?

I really asked this because this morning I was looking at the Urban Area stats for the Western Midwest region, and when I came to Grand Forks, ND, (I know it's by no means the most isolated of places, but this is when the thought came to me) that it must be a bit of a shock coming from the surrounding rural area and suddenly being in an urban area. Then I realised that of course, there must be an area around this UA of a lower density which would not be called truly rural, like a transition area. This is quite obvious, but it just popped into my head then and made me wonder if any figures for this kind of thing exist.

I could, and may well try and work this kind of thing out for select places. The population and area statistics are available through the Census Bureau, so just because it's when the thought occurred to me, I'll start with Grand Forks and see if I can find a figure for this 'built up area' before I get bored.

Last edited by BruceTenmile; 08-19-2012 at 11:14 AM..
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