Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Location: Uniquely Individual Villages of the Megalopolis
646 posts, read 815,047 times
Reputation: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by milquetoast
But why, Stuy, do they speak 25 languages in Nuuk? What is a 'nick'? And why am I a "bloody ratbag"? Your job, being the genesis of this thread, is to educate- especially with a topic like this. A classification I've never even considered. Please, with the psycological analysis on my character, seems I've struck something in you. We're gonna need more than Yankees/Mets to define whether or not a city is worthy of primacy or not. I also think this is interesting, and it would be easy to point out all the cities in countries around the world that contain primate examples. This topic requires more information than I think we are ready to offer. I still don't think that we have our 'regions' accurately mapped out yet, let alone what constitutes 'primacy' within a region in America. Northwest, northeast, Atlantic region? New England region states? Are we also talking about the wonderful msa's or csa's. Who knew Detroit's metro was less than half the size of Chicago's. That's the metropolitan statistical area definition, right? If we're talkin' msa, then the Bay area can counterbalance southern California, or at least the L. A. metro. Just San Francisco wouldn't accomplish this. Why? It's cultural input is wonderful (culture received from elsewhere). Its cultural output is, what? I could generalize, but I don't want to be an EXLAXer!! You know how we are! We generalize worse than anybody! (this from someone who spent 7 years in an airport!) Also, if you're going to relay information on a topic this obscure, please check your spelling and grammar. Some of your sentences I couldn't understand, and I so want to. Everyone should state where they're from. Stuy, your broken english has me thinking you're new to this country.
It just appears, region by region, to be following a similar path, as less economic growth occurs, it tends to gather in one center. That's in a country or within a country, a hierarchy.
It is interesting, but I thought people had read some of those links I provided.
Sure, a simpler small country is easier to view. That is why some of these models start from a more homogeneous plane and CPT,( Central Place Theory), and other models get more complicated to include many variables. It's a way to see what structures ultimately develop considering all the things you mention i.e. politics, culture, soft power thru fashion, personal goods, heavy goods/shipping, finance, etc. So it's useful to analyze developed country as well like I did with Spain. You didn't see that either.
But back to the case of the rank rule and primacy thing , San Francisco is a larger "power" in the West than Boston is in the East. That's why Boston won't have as much pull on NY as SF does on LA. It's the order and some of that I pointed out was also visible on the map another person provided. I stated to some degree those follow.
I'll work on my brash NY broken fast paced language with all the edits, I get distracted by people in the household all the time while responding, kids, pets. We also just got a couple new computers, and this site is quite nuanced to navigate. I am a teacher believe it or not, so I'll work on that if you work on your sight. I made some statements regarding that Alpha, Beta, Gamma map back aways.
Future Cop is too much, good guy though, he's just gung ho NY like when I lived in LA and people were there, a great place to study geology and geographies of all stripes. NYers are very defensive. He is not getting the concept of primacy, or he's overlooking it running it over, (just like a NYer). Primacy isn't such a good thing, but it isn't bad for those who are within the Primate city area but the region as a whole loses strength. We're talking general tendencies here not specifics and large tendencies that somehow do trickle down. That's it too, the big Primate rather runs counter to the US situation, because we don't like "Trickle Down" economics. Some countries work okay with that, but we don't like it, we're grassroots and bottom up type governance. That's the main point.
You see with Chicago's rise many other nodes are lets say bankrupt almost and the region as a whole is losing generally population and all that goes with that. The city does very well but within the framework of the US, another region gains from its losses. However, they are going by like in my original post, by msa's or csa's sometimes just city figs.
The original post showed the NYC area at 21 mil with LA at 16 mil, etc. SF iirc is @ 7.2 mil not quite half of LA's total csa/msa. Or look at the actual city populations inside. For NY's dominance in a region Boston is 4.5 million, compare that to 21 million.
I thought you would have picked up on that. Of course there is more to it all than that, but we're talking basics here. Again obviously SF pulls more weight everywhere than Boston, which is why it pulls on LA more and it's almost half of LA metro. But is much larger in weight than Boston, the only other city in the NY region that is a gamma, not even a beta. SF is a beta. That fits the rank rule/ primacy test for the Western US in general. These few puzzles like rank/order etc are basics for more advanced methods as in spatial analysis. That' not so fun.
Try it on other places like I did with Spain, see what turns out.
Since there is so much movement and flux within the US I think it can explain at least some of it to match what people are all in an upheaval about.
I didn't invent these things but I had learned them and find them fun and provide some logically basic information and amusing. Thought if any where I could share them would be among a bunch of real estate agents and wanton travel agents.
Nick, come on, that's nickname or moniker, handle or whatever, ID.
(It's a NJ Team too, the Knicks). Excuse me I have to go back to Atlantic City to Bally's Wild West tomorrow.
Consider this article in the context of returning primacy to Chicago, NY and others:
The brighter that city-centers in the northern U.S. glow, the rustier the ghettos in those cities become.
Such is the price for globalization. Neoliberal policies of the '90s have worsened Rust Belt's black ghettos
Last edited by StuyTownRefugee; 11-13-2007 at 03:18 AM..
Location: Uniquely Individual Villages of the Megalopolis
646 posts, read 815,047 times
Reputation: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenken627
I actually think its a case of what you stated earlier, as we don't really have our "regions" mapped out yet.
I was thinking of the South in general which would include Houston and Dallas instead of just the Southeast.
If it was just the Southeast, I agree that Atlanta would be the dominant node in the region with a slight edge over Miami.
I was trying to match up the results of what we already do know by discourse here or other info, with the MasterCard map provided by another person back a ways. You'll see a large collection of gamma cities as this study group does (G Wac) or something in the South East. Primacy is not such a good thing that's the point,. There is due to economic growth or whatever more cities on an equal footing, all gamma for now. As in a previous post primacy is good for Chicago or NY, but not so good for those who don't live in the vicinity and for those who do they usually fall through the cracks generally speaking.
Maybe some people are shocked to see such a cluster of gamma in the South and South East, DC, ATL, MIA, DAL, HOU and see more dominance in the West by LA and SF with no gammas yet. It's just others out there have not but shortly probably will jump into such a spot. Look at the map that was provided for reference. Remember the basic order. Only thing pulling CHI back is a gamma MPLS similar to NYC and BOS for that region.
Why MPLS? It's services and functions, a small Chicago but it isn't a beta like SF to LA. Confusing.
Maybe you don't agree but I see quite a bit of reflection following the rs rule and primacy "law". But as I state MC is probably looking solely at financial services which often matches the primacy of a center.
Again the fact that the SC from DC to HOU all the gammas are simiar at this point in time is better for the region than the arrangement in the NE or MW. California, West Coast is balanced too, but differently. Different terrain, all things considered, population distribution, natural barriers, that don't exist profoundly in the Southeast.
At least it tends to hierarchy in a country and within a country. Geographers claim everything has a tendency to hierarchy in the physical world. That's why they call it a rank/order rule we can see some of it, it's just things you never realized before. Like Medical doctors they don't look at pain and such like the lay people do, they see the world differently, spatially. Hierarchies are relative too depending on the status of the political unit. This is about spatial analysis too.
People want to think of primacy as 'prime, or primary, ' or premier' or first order but economically and otherwise it can be parasitic rather than generative. That's not the same for saying premiere or primary. It's a different term and the less there is for a country often the more development and growth overall may be going on.
The issue with the SE is though one may reach alpha and definitely beta stage there are many others that are incipient gamma stage, Charlotte, San Antonio, for example.
Consider this article in context:
The brighter that city-centers in the northern U.S. glow, the rustier the ghettos in those cities become.
Such is the price for globalization.
It's interesting, but it assumes methods of measure I don't adhere to. Metropolitan statistical areas, consolidated statistical areas....those stats are abused all the time. This forum has been over this before. New York, in your example, shows 21 million. That sounds like a consolidated stat. L. A.'s shows 16 mil. That's closer to a metropolitan amount for that area. Having a statistical area for a city that exceeds the state's actual population by 2 million is more than fishy, enabling said city to attach its name to a false primacy, if you will. A population primacy. Gathering suburbs in neighboring states,- and even crossing states to get at people who are then judged subjectivly to be influenced more by the distant city than the urban center of their existence. That sounds like it has no place in science at all. Politics, yes. Pretty soon, you end up with 'BosWash'! Boundaries must be firmly established for this particular discussion to take place, but they're in flux and are subject to a kind of civic gerymandering. You, of all people, know what I'm talking about there.
Location: Uniquely Individual Villages of the Megalopolis
646 posts, read 815,047 times
Reputation: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by milquetoast
It's interesting, but it assumes methods of measure I don't adhere to. Metropolitan statistical areas, consolidated statistical areas....those stats are abused all the time. This forum has been over this before. New York, in your example, shows 21 million. That sounds like a consolidated stat. L. A.'s shows 16 mil. That's closer to a metropolitan amount for that area. Having a statistical area for a city that exceeds the state's actual population by 2 million is more than fishy, enabling said city to attach its name to a false primacy, if you will. A population primacy. Gathering suburbs in neighboring states,- and even crossing states to get at people who are then judged subjectivly to be influenced more by the distant city than the urban center of their existence. That sounds like it has no place in science at all. Politics, yes. Pretty soon, you end up with 'BosWash'! Boundaries must be firmly established for this particular discussion to take place, but they're in flux and are subject to a kind of civic gerymandering. You, of all people, know what I'm talking about there.
But what msa's exceed their state's pop? We're talking about globalism here and the like, not worries about voting jurisdictions.
What 'boundaries' would you say LA or NY have, as you claim yourself the influence of LA has, where are those limits? I thought you knew we weren't talking necessarily about physical limits? There's no room being didactic about any of this because many things transcend borders or boundaries as been alluded to many times I've seen already. This is an attempt to measure those. Limitations on globalism is oxymoronic.
Last edited by StuyTownRefugee; 11-13-2007 at 03:40 AM..
I was trying to match up the results of what we already do know by discourse here or other info, with the MasterCard map provided by another person back a ways. You'll see a large collection of gamma cities as this study group does (G Wac) or something in the South East. Primacy is not such a good thing that's the point,. There is due to economic growth or whatever more cities on an equal footing, all gamma for now. As in a previous post primacy is good for Chicago or NY, but not so good for those who don't live in the vicinity and for those who do they usually fall through the cracks generally speaking.
Maybe some people are shocked to see such a cluster of gamma in the South and South East, DC, ATL, MIA, DAL, HOU and see more dominance in the West by LA and SF with no gammas yet. It's just others out there have not but shortly probably will jump into such a spot. Look at the map that was provided for reference. Remember the basic order. Only thing pulling CHI back is a gamma MPLS similar to NYC and BOS for that region.
Why MPLS? It's services and functions, a small Chicago but it isn't a beta like SF to LA. Confusing.
Maybe you don't agree but I see quite a bit of reflection following the rs rule and primacy "law". But as I state MC is probably looking solely at financial services which often matches the primacy of a center.
Again the fact that the SC from DC to HOU all the gammas are simiar at this point in time is better for the region than the arrangement in the NE or MW. California, West Coast is balanced too, but differently. Different terrain, all things considered, population distribution, natural barriers, that don't exist profoundly in the Southeast.
At least it tends to hierarchy in a country and within a country. Geographers claim everything has a tendency to hierarchy in the physical world. That's why they call it a rank/order rule we can see some of it, it's just things you never realized before. Like Medical doctors they don't look at pain and such like the lay people do, they see the world differently, spatially. Hierarchies are relative too depending on the status of the political unit. This is about spatial analysis too.
People want to think of primacy as 'prime, or primary, ' or premier' or first order but economically and otherwise it can be parasitic rather than generative. That's not the same for saying premiere or primary. It's a different term and the less there is for a country often the more development and growth overall may be going on.
The issue with the SE is though one may reach alpha and definitely beta stage there are many others that are incipient gamma stage, Charlotte, San Antonio, for example.
Consider this article in context:
The brighter that city-centers in the northern U.S. glow, the rustier the ghettos in those cities become.
Such is the price for globalization.
No, I agree with you that having balance within a region or country between cities of different importance is better than having a primate city that feeds off an entire area.
I also agree that spatial and geographical features dictate much of how a region's (or country's) cities correlate to each other. While there are exceptions, most countries with large, broad open land and mild climate do not tend to have a primate city. India, China, and the US have most of their population spread out across vast regions and therefore were able to give rise to many different cities of relatively equal stature.
Countries in Europe and some parts of Asia tend to be very small in size, and are limited in livability, and access due to natural terrain or extreme climate. This has caused primate cities to easily access most of the population from it's city-center, and therefore did not have the need for any other base of operations. Germany and Italy are exceptions, but both countries were not unified into a whole until the late 1800's, long after many of their principle cities passed through their growth stages.
Within the U.S., the Rocky and Appalachian Mountains represent a significant barrier between the East and West Coasts from the interior. There always will be more people populating coastal areas, but I believe that these two mountain ranges have made it more so historically. The South on the other hand is not as unhindered by terrain and is very spread out. Different cities of smaller, but equal stature in the region works very well for the South. There may be a dominant node that stands out a little more, but not in the way Chicago is with the Midwest.
Last edited by tenken627; 11-13-2007 at 04:09 PM..
"For instance the financial and cultural centers of LA, NY, Chicago, and others are dispersed because the political center of the country is located at Washington, DC."
How is the financial power of the country dispersed among these cities? New York is preeminent. What is the value of CBOT/CME compared to the trading in New York? New York has a comparable commodities/derivatives exchange, NYSE, and controls open market operations.
The societal and cultural power in the USA is divided between New York City, Washington DC, San Francisco, and Los Angeles, as well as Boston and Chicago (to include academic and financial power).
Location: Uniquely Individual Villages of the Megalopolis
646 posts, read 815,047 times
Reputation: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by M TYPE X
The societal and cultural power in the USA is divided between New York City, Washington DC, San Francisco, and Los Angeles, as well as Boston and Chicago (to include academic and financial power).
Since you mentioned culture, etc, I think Southern culture is growing too as attested by certain theads here, showing increased distribution nationwide from the S/SE's growing importance. At present the DC area delivers some of but there is weight being added in the Eastern sunbelt regions though not summed up in any one particular center yet. There are a number of centers perhaps working together to impart a regional impact.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
