Is patronizing a street prostitute unethical and expoitive?

[Mack Knife]

Originally Posted by Lizita

Don't you think that having sex with someone who is only agreeing to it out of desperation is "use[ing] selfishly for one's own end"? The fact that the john pays for it doesn't mean that it's not exploitation. What if the prostitute is a starving 12-year old? Would you still argue that payment removes exploitation from the equation?
There are definitely prostitutes who have made a free, conscious decisions to trade sex for money but they are usually "call girls" making a lot of money. I'm talking about street prostitutes who are, in a majority of cases, addicted to drugs, extremely poor and has children to support, or is forced to be there by a pimp. As mentioned the vast majority were molested before the age of 14.
When some guy pays one of these girls 20 bucks for some quick sex just because it's an easy thrill it is nothing short of exploiting. They are basically taking advantage of someone else's desperation and wounded psyche. Street prostitution deals are in no way a deal between two equal parties.



How does the fact that a man is unattractive or not sociable make it any less of a case of exploitation? He's still taking advantage of a person's misfortune. Being ugly doesn't make that okay. The majority of johns are regular guys, though. Men of all ages, income levels and looks. Many are married.

Have you ever talked to a street prostitute about what she does? I have and I can assure you that they would rather do anything else than to suck on some strangers genitals. Most find the johns disgusting an repulsive. They only do it because they don't have any better options.

So, what are YOU doing to make their lives better? Anything?

The world has revolved around people taking advantage of the less fortunate since humans walked the earth. Suddenly though, everything is the fault of the "john" right? Nothing prior to the final financial arrangement had anything to do with the circumstances eh?

Street prostitution is the result of, not the cause of the hardships those females endure. Somewhere along the way, some people seem to think the man at then end of a long line of circumstances bears all the responsibility.

Are "johns" despicable? Maybe but surely no less than everyone else who had some involvement in how things got the way they are...

and a lot of those people are women!

[RememberMee]

Originally Posted by Lizita

I just had to respond to this comment. It's so offensive and ignorant. Is that really how you think sex works, that women only "give it up" in exchange for some reward? If that's how it works in your life there must be something very off with you. That's not how it usually works. Believe it or not but women are sexual beings too. They too have sex and get married because they want to, not because of something the man has to give. I married my husband because I love him and I have sex with him because I want to. There is nothing even remotely similar to prostitution in our relationship. Nobody is giving anything up.

Lizita, I'm sorry reality is so offensive to you. There are exceptions to every rule, but it just takes a casual glance at the relationship market place to see a very distinct pattern you are so offended by. It's not to bash women, after all it's only natural for a female (of all species) to select a male partner well equipped to succeed in their environment. It's just that human females have more variables of "fitness" to consider since a biologically successful mate cannot always capitalize on inequalities of the human social structure allowing some males (and females) to enjoy far greater share of resources than pure "biology" would ever allow.

Biological fitness vs social fitness, what a woman should choose? It's depends on culture, economic, religion, etc., etc. As of 2013, women overwhelmingly choose higher socio-economic status to anything else under the Sun. Free at last, after 100 years of liberation women view "worthy" men as objects who must fit a, b, c ... and z on her less-than-romantic expectation list. Yes, younger females still may stray when it comes to pure biology, personality and even smile, but more mature ones are very predictable calculators. Again, welcome to our world.

[djacques]

I suppose it's exploitative the way any wage-earning job is in a wage-based society. Am I exploiting the overworked girl at Burger King when I order a Whopper? She isn't there for the sheer fun of it, she's there to survive. Nevertheless, I don't feel guilty about it. We all have to earn a living some way, and many of those ways suck (no pun intended) and the principle is not different just because sex organs are involved.

[Lizita]

Originally Posted by Mack Knife

So, what are YOU doing to make their lives better? Anything?

I've done a number of things to try to help women and girls on the street. I can give you a list if you want to.

The world has revolved around people taking advantage of the less fortunate since humans walked the earth. Suddenly though, everything is the fault of the "john" right? Nothing prior to the final financial arrangement had anything to do with the circumstances eh?

Street prostitution is the result of, not the cause of the hardships those females endure. Somewhere along the way, some people seem to think the man at then end of a long line of circumstances bears all the responsibility.

Are "johns" despicable? Maybe but surely no less than everyone else who had some involvement in how things got the way they are...

and a lot of those people are women!

I'm not at all saying that everything is the fault of the johns. Of course they had no part in the reason why these women ended up where they are to begin with. Many people carry responsibility, including the women themselves. But that's no excuse to take advantage of the situation. It's very easy not to. You don't have to contribute to all the bad deeds and choices other people have done. You can choose not to be selfish. Making arguments like "people have always taken advantage of weaker people" just doesn't hold up. That's no reason to continue it. At some point it has to stop and it's every person's responsibility to not contribute to the problem. It's a matter of having a conscience and the fact that others have not had a conscience and done wrong doesn't mean that it's okay for you. Of course you can be a jerk if you want to but it's a very ugly thing to do. You just don't take advantage of people who are much, much weaker than you regardless of how many times it been done in the past.

[Lizita]

Originally Posted by bolillo_loco

countries as developed as the States that also have legal prostitution do not suffer any of our problems.

Not true. Where do you think Danish addicts make their money?

Unattractive men? Define attractive... Furthermore, by the logic you're using, I could conclude that you're very unattractive and your man or men you find attractive don't' fancy you. If that sounded insulting and or ridiculous, it should. Because that's how you sound tossing about the word unattractive men and insinuating that only unattractive men solicit prostitutes.

Not at all. It was your buddy Surftown that made that statement: "Some people wrongly victimize prostitutes and condemn the Johns. A lot of these johns are actually looking for companionship and just aren't attractive, sociable, or good at the dating game."

Your words also hint that you've some sort of issue with men. Whether or not you do or don't I have no clue, but that's how you sound to me.

Not true either. I have no problem with men in general, just some of them which has nothing to do with the fact that they're men. I'm married to one.

Moreover, would you rather have me buy a prostitute that I like or pick up some woman I am absolutely not interested in, have sex with her, and then summarily toss her to the side because I'm done with her?

That's your only options? What's wrong with treating people decently?

Since prostitution is illegal in this country, I often lie to women just to bed them, and then never call or talk to them again. I know I've hurt them because I've been told about it a hundred times. Your attitude is ensuring that I continue to abuse regular women's feelings because I cannot buy a prostitute. The only people exploiting American prostitutes would be the zealots that continue to keep it illegal thus ensuring that ladies of the night are the bottom of the barrel down on their luck, and society's going to keep them there. Furthermore, men like myself, that won't buy American prostitutes because they're illegal and mostly unattractive due to the fact that it's illegal here will continue to "exploit" common everyday women for intimate encounters, and then discard them like rubbish when we're done with them. As far as attractive/unattractive goes, we do not see the world through your eyes, so it's not too hard to find people no matter how ill-favored you may consider us.

Let me get this straight. It's my fault that you abuse women and toss them aside like trash? How about getting a girlfriend and treat her well so you'll have someone who actually want to have sex with you. You won't need to pay for sex or go around acting like a jerk. Problem solved.

What you find disgusting other people don't. Do you know what I do when I find something repulsive? I do not partake in it. I don't involve myself in it, and providing it's not being shoved down my throat, I go elsewhere.

And that's exactly the problem - you can go elsewhere and not partake in something you find disgusting and repulsive. Street girls, for one reason or another, can't without major hardship.

If you're seeing prostitutes where you don't want to, it's because it's illegal. When something's illegal, all regulation on it is lost, and therefore, it shows up in unwanted places.

I don't have a problem with where it turns up. That's not what I have a problem with at all. Some do though and I can assure you that it's not at all only in places where it's illegal. I've lived in Stockholm, Sweden where there is a fairly infamous hooker stroll and the residents are not happy about it. Yet it's been there for decades despite the fact that prostitution was perfectly legal until the late 90's. At that point they criminalized the johns but the women can still legally sell sex. And you know what, the ones who do, on a street level, are almost all run-aways, mentally ill or addicted (poverty isn't really a problem in Sweden so you won't see women turning to prostitution out of poverty there as you do here). The only major difference between legal and illegal countries is the pimps.

It seems like I've struck a cord with some people, possibly those who do go to prostitutes and feel that they have to defend themselves.

[oceangaia]

Originally Posted by Lizita

At some point it has to stop and it's every person's responsibility to not contribute to the problem. It's a matter of having a conscience and the fact that others have not had a conscience and done wrong doesn't mean that it's okay for you.

And what if that happens? I've asked you the question twice before and you ignored it, probably because you have no answer. If prostitution is the last option these girls have and you take away that option, then what happens? If all the men became "ethical" by your standards overnight and stopped exploiting, their source of revenue disappears. How then do they get by?

[Just Over The Horizon]

Why do some folks view their need to save others as a need to make perfect every aspect of an imperfect existence?

And why suggest people are 'dirty' sex consumers when they are merely airing their thoughts on a subject that is compelling? Even if they do buy sex, that is far from 'dirty', it is merely human behavior in a human world that has all-to-human acts occuring throughout its span.

It is strange that anyone who points out the obvious (that people mutually exploit each other for many things over the course of their lifetimes with varying degrees of accepted legality to their exploits) must be rebuked with a moral sting? All women have halos, now? Male sex customers are born with horns? All children have caring, responsible parents who provide mental, physical and emotional support? There is something to the fact that attraction to a no strings attached (but money or goods) sexual encounter is just a fetish or a need or is simply convenient. Some may view that as 'sad' or 'perverse' but it is really just ordinary human behavior that has existed for who knows how many thousands of years and will go on far off into the future. Those girls know it, those guys know it and no one is fooling themselves that a Richard Gere is coming someday to pick-up a Julia Roberts and make for a cute happy faerie-tale ending that will cure everyone, everywhere, overnight of all their 'filthy' habits, like people choosing to conjoin with a prostitute, or prostitutes their customers.

See, it's because it is a choice. Perhaps the circumstances were beyond either the prostitute's or the john's control that gets them to do what they are doing, but it is still a choice and a viable one, maybe even the only one either has to stay human, to stay alive or feel alive. Is it sad to see women parade themselves as sexual objects that see leering men driving around the block as nothing more than an objectified cash flow? That is a matter of perception, and what is perceived is always subjective, relying on how one believes the way things should be versus how things really are and the means one goes about the moral compromise to achieve an acceptable personal compass, preferably with understanding and acceptance.

Read Oceangaia. There are relative situations that are just as morally compromising in the more clean-looking mating-for-compensation world. In my teen years, there were many apparently upright girls who would 'put out' (as they said then) for a discrete favor with boys they knew or not! Those situations weren't dirty or vile, they were natural, part of normal socialization. If someone should decide to continue on that course, what of it?

Now exactly what is decent treatment? Perhaps the treatment is correctly given and even expected. This:

Originally Posted by Lizita

Let me get this straight. It's my fault that you abuse women and toss them aside like trash? How about getting a girlfriend and treat her well so you'll have someone who actually want to have sex with you. You won't need to pay for sex or go around acting like a jerk. Problem solved.

^That is exactly why a lot of men pay for a prostitute's services.

That smug morally righteous attitude made to infuse guilt, to get something in return to abate the drama; seal the conjured rift. You realize a lot of married men compensate for having sex with their wives as part of the social contract that marriage is? And a good amount probably visit prostitutes because they don't nag them and are cheaper then their spouse's abusive coercions.

Problem solved? Really? Problem created- and Western societies have this morally repugnant "Punch and Judy" farce down pat. A society assigning blame fitfully, paternally? Legalizing prostitution would make it so much better, especially for the prostitutes. But so many people are addicted to feeling their own righteous repugnance...

This weird cult of labeling people as victims is just a religious moral madness clothed in humanitarian diapers, always someone needing to buy the snake oil to be cured until they find out the cure is pure quackery and as foul as what it supposedly cures. People do what they do for many reasons and exploitation is rampant, is everywhere because that is exactly how humans go about the business of living, of getting what they want or need, or even just for the experience or the thrill. There is no proper way to live life, there is just living life and people do or they don't to varying degrees of success.

No one has a guarantee that comes with their birth certificate promising a clean, pretty life full of someone else's ideas as to what that life should be. And no one ever should!

[RememberMee]

Because of the job I do I deal with more working girls than probably most of people who cared enough to write 4 pages on this topic. No I don't buy sex, sometimes I have hard time keeping sellers at bay. None of the prostitutes I've met and talked to was overburdened with this soul searching, "existential" and social justice crap (we spill our guts over here) or general brain activity for that matter, quite a few appeared to enjoy themselves quite a bit, the rest were stoned to semi-zombie state that precludes any "soul searching" or gag reflexes.

Being a sucker for life, I tend to give money etc. (at least once) to people who beg or to the girls sell their less than desirable bodies for $ (unless it's clear that a pimp is just around the corner). There is no deep "philosophical" underpinning or vanity to presume I "help" or I change the cosmic order of things. People beg, I give, because that's all I can (or willing) to do, and yes some of those beggars need every rare penny or a piece of food they can get, the rest make me wonder but I give them the benefit of the doubt anyway.

Parking area in VA just South of Delaware, a girl with poorly fixed cleft lip but otherwise well preserved despite obvious habits knocks or my door, I talk to her about weather and life, she promptly describes things she can do for a modest price, I tell her "no thanks" but I do give her money (as TS I presume every street girl is a victim who would rather flip burgers somewhere), she takes money and start taunt me "Are you a gay", "Are you an impotent", "Are you this and that". That's my thanks. No girl, I have my standards and you just don't meet those. No I didn't say that, but I said something so she went to the next truck. Not much talking there. A fat balding guy (as you all say) just opens a door, stands on the doorsteps and opens his fly, that triggered my gag reflex (not hers), 2 minutes later the girl proudly (no kidding) walks way. Apparently it was the most lucrative day for her in a while. Mind you, the girl didn't ask a fat balding guy something like "What went wrong with your life, why you are so miserable as to have sexual relationships with the girls like me?".

A few more girls took my money (and refusal) as a personal challenge. To summarize it all, it's assumed that only men can crave random sex with strangers, but apparently it's BS, under all those layers of repression of female sexuality, quite a few women crave the same and they can even make a few pennies of that. BTW, it's official social science, Google it, modern women are more promiscuous than modern men (in the developed countries). Free at last.