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It's sort of amazing honestly. Scandinavians see education and healthcare as a right, Americans see it as a privilege and a commodity. Americans view the poor as lazy and sketchy, Scandinavians view the poor as unfortunate. Americans see criminals as evil people who need to suffer, Scandinavians see criminals as mentally ill people who need treatment (and their approach to justice has better results). Americans constantly claim to be #1 despite the facts, Scandinavians are #1 in development and you never hear them brag about it. The relationship between the sexes is much healthier in Scandinavia. Women and men respect each other and do not feel a pressing need to adhere to rigid roles.
I'm not saying America is horrible and Scandinavia is perfect, but why do Nordic countries have their Moderator cut: language together compared to us? One could argue it's because Scandinavia has a more homogenous society but I think it's more than that. After all countries like Colombia and Saudi Arabia are also very homogenous yet have a ton of issues.
I personally think a lot of it has to do with America's history of oppression, not only towards blacks but also towards the white underclass. It takes a strong belief in use of sadistic force and callous policies towards the unfortunate to keep that hierarchy in place. I also think it has to do with our dogmatic adherence to the free market and social Darwinism which promotes victim blaming attitudes and glorifies the bullies of society.
Last edited by Oldhag1; 10-13-2014 at 05:27 AM..
Reason: Merge
It's sort of amazing honestly. Scandinavians see education and healthcare as a right, Americans see it as a privilege and a commodity. Americans view the poor as lazy and sketchy, Scandinavians view the poor as unfortunate. Americans see criminals as evil people who need to suffer, Scandinavians see criminals as mentally ill people who need treatment (and their approach to justice has better results). Americans constantly claim to be #1 despite the facts, Scandinavians are #1 in development and you never hear them brag about it. The relationship between the sexes is much healthier in Scandinavia. Women and men respect each other and do not feel a pressing need to adhere to rigid roles.
I'm not saying America is horrible and Scandinavia is perfect, but why do Nordic countries have their sh*t together compared to us? One could argue it's because Scandinavia has a more homogenous society but I think it's more than that. After all countries like Colombia and Saudi Arabia are also very homogenous yet have a ton of issues.
Here's the gaping fallacy in your thinking: You equate government programs with compassion. In truth, what is happening is that people in Scandinavia have subcontracted out their compassion to bureaucrats rather than act compassionately themselves. All you need to do is look at how countries stack up in terms of charitable giving:
In short, Americans will give quite generously of their money and their time to help others, much more so than the supposedly altruistic Scandinavian countries. This is unassailable fact.
The other fallacy is that you compare small, relatively homogenous countries with the sheer sprawl and complexity of the United States. Cultural values matter a great deal, despite your efforts to make it a throwaway line in your post.
I mean, you point out that Scandinavians view education as an absolute right. Last time I checked, public schools are free in this country as well. In fact, the United States spends more money per student that Sweden, Denmark, and Finland, with a host of remediation programs in place to help disadvantaged students. With this in mind, your contention is essentially that the United States does not emphasize education, but our spending and continuing national priority assigned to improving student performance proves that assertion to be absurd. The problem isn't will or funding but, short of holding a pistol to the head of people, you cannot force the poor to emphasize education to their children.
I'll give you a perfect example. About ten years ago, I performed a long-term planning project for a housing project. Mind you, this project was in a city with one of the country's lowest unemployment rates. Employers were absolutely begging for workers. I remember driving through a McDonalds down the road from this project advertising for counter help making $13 an hour.
So my project included interviewing 100 project residents. I asked them questions about taking advantage of the many programs available to them. Job training, education remediation, child care, you name it. All they had to do was sign up and they would learn a trade wit some pretty high-paying industrial employers in the area. Of those 100 I interviewed, about half were willing to try. The other 50%? It was amazing how candid they were about matters. They were gaming the system. One guy told me in rather explicit detail how he could cobble together some day labor here and there, cut some yards for cash, and wait for his government stipends to arrive by mail. The 50% who would work? I'll help those people all day. The other 50%? I couldn't care less about them.
To me, the salient question is this: With a highly educated society with homogenous cultural values and, in the case of Norway, huge amounts of wealth per capita due to oil sales, why haven't the Scandinavian countries taken a larger place on the world economic stage? Throw out Norway due to their passive revenue of oil, and Sweden, Denmark, and Finland have a per capita income on par with the United States, but with a much higher tax burden. That means a good deal less left over at the end of the day. Do yourself a favor and ask the average middle-class American trying to raise children how he feels about bumping his tax bill about 20% to provide a safety net for others who aren't working.
Mind you, I'm not critiquing Scandinavia per se. If the people like their government and system, then fine. But remember what you term 'compassion' is not necessarily compassionate, especially when you realize that there are long-term costs for those kinds of policies. And, despite what you naively assume, there's nothing compassionate about that.
It's sort of amazing honestly. Scandinavians see education and healthcare as a right, Americans see it as a privilege and a commodity. Americans view the poor as lazy and sketchy, Scandinavians view the poor as unfortunate. Americans see criminals as evil people who need to suffer, Scandinavians see criminals as mentally ill people who need treatment (and their approach to justice has better results). Americans constantly claim to be #1 despite the facts, Scandinavians are #1 in development and you never hear them brag about it. The relationship between the sexes is much healthier in Scandinavia. Women and men respect each other and do not feel a pressing need to adhere to rigid roles.
I'm not saying America is horrible and Scandinavia is perfect, but why do Nordic countries have their sh*t together compared to us? One could argue it's because Scandinavia has a more homogenous society but I think it's more than that. After all countries like Colombia and Saudi Arabia are also very homogenous yet have a ton of issues.
The U.S. is a primitive country compared to Scandinavia. It is run by greedy capitalists whose hold on power has been strengthened by the ignorant populace voting time and again against their own interests. It is very sad actually. It has deteriorated a great deal as a nation over the years I have been here.
Here's the gaping fallacy in your thinking: You equate government programs with compassion. In truth, what is happening is that people in Scandinavia have subcontracted out their compassion to bureaucrats rather than act compassionately themselves. All you need to do is look at how countries stack up in terms of charitable giving:
Of course Norwegians, Swedes etc spend a bit less money and time on charity than Americans; they have less need for it. I'd also argue since few people go to church there compared to America that would make a big difference in terms of volunteer time and such; it's not evidence that Scandinavians are more self-centered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpg35223
To me, the salient question is this: With a highly educated society with homogenous cultural values and, in the case of Norway, huge amounts of wealth per capita due to oil sales, why haven't the Scandinavian countries taken a larger place on the world economic stage? Throw out Norway due to their passive revenue of oil, and Sweden, Denmark, and Finland have a per capita income on par with the United States, but with a much higher tax burden. That means a good deal less left over at the end of the day. Do yourself a favor and ask the average middle-class American trying to raise children how he feels about bumping his tax bill about 20% to provide a safety net for others who aren't working.
Why is the fact a good portion of their GDP comes from oil even relevant? So what? A good amount of the US's prosperity lies on the back of wage slavery in other countries. The Scandinavian countries also have less income inequality. 40 percent of American workers make less than $20,000 a year and since there is no universal health care and cars are a necessity in most places people are largely going to be paying for these necessities out of their pocket in the US. I can assure you far fewer people are hurting in Scandinavia as far as money goes than in America. As far as middle class taxes, it's the right wing who wants the little people to take more of the tax burden away from the rich to make things more "fair".
Last edited by Mini-apple-less; 10-12-2014 at 09:38 AM..
Of course Norwegians, Swedes etc spend a bit less money and time on charity than Americans; they have less need for it.
They have less need for it because they tax the crap out of EVERYONE. Why would you donate money to anyone when the government takes most of what you earn to give to someone else? They also have a far more regressive tax rate (something US liberals hate) than the US has.
Norway also requires people to WORK if they want all of those social benefits, if you don't have a job they'll find one for you and if you don't take it, no more benefits. Something else US liberals wouldn't stand for, people working for their handout.
It's sort of amazing honestly. Scandinavians see education and healthcare as a right, Americans see it as a privilege and a commodity. Americans view the poor as lazy and sketchy, Scandinavians view the poor as unfortunate. Americans see criminals as evil people who need to suffer, Scandinavians see criminals as mentally ill people who need treatment (and their approach to justice has better results). Americans constantly claim to be #1 despite the facts, Scandinavians are #1 in development and you never hear them brag about it. The relationship between the sexes is much healthier in Scandinavia. Women and men respect each other and do not feel a pressing need to adhere to rigid roles.
I'm not saying America is horrible and Scandinavia is perfect, but why do Nordic countries have their sh*t together compared to us? One could argue it's because Scandinavia has a more homogenous society but I think it's more than that. After all countries like Colombia and Saudi Arabia are also very homogenous yet have a ton of issues.
It is because the American system has made the poor lazy. It has created a poor underclass, where none would have existed. I wonder why the Scandinavians see it differently?
We Americans are very compassionate, and are willing to help the truly helpless, but we balk at working hard to let able bodied others milk the system.
One example would be, when did it become necessary for schools to provide meals to children? Here's a radical concept, but how about parents feed their own children, or don't have them in the first place? I could go on, but you get the idea.
It is because the American system has made the poor lazy. It has created a poor underclass, where none would have existed. I wonder why the Scandinavians see it differently?
We Americans are very compassionate, and are willing to help the truly helpless, but we balk at working hard to let able bodied others milk the system.
One example would be, when did it become necessary for schools to provide meals to children? Here's a radical concept, but how about parents feed their own children, or don't have them in the first place? I could go on, but you get the idea.
The poor aren't lazy, they work harder than anyone but get hardly any compensation for it. In Scandinavian countries the government makes sure everyone has a job, in this country if you can't compete in the job market you have no choice but to obtain whatever benefits you can. And not everyone can do odd jobs on Craigslist or be an entrepreneur, trust me I've tried and you'll never make enough to reliably pay the bills unless you're both extremely lucky and talented.
The government will not just "hook you up" with a job in America like they can in Scandinavia - you need to bust your ass and it might take months to find a job. Which for many people is too long and they end up on the street without clean clothes for an interview or an address.
This country belongs to the capital owners and the employers, not everyone who lives here.
And did you ever consider that some of those able bodied people who are "milking" the system might have psychological or mental disabilities that prevent them from holding down a job? I had severe depression and anxiety that prevented me from being able to work for 5 years and only recently have I become able-minded enough to hold down a job. Most jobs these days require brains more than brawn so if anything they are even more disadvantaged then someone who is missing an arm or something. Even working a cash register is more intellectually challenging than you'd think, I have an IQ of 129 and even I struggled with it the first couple times.
Last edited by Mini-apple-less; 10-12-2014 at 10:11 AM..
Of course Norwegians, Swedes etc spend a bit less money and time on charity than Americans; they have less need for it. I'd also argue since few people go to church there compared to America that would make a big difference in terms of volunteer time and such; it's not evidence that Scandinavians are more self-centered.
Why is the fact a good portion of their GDP comes from oil even relevant? So what? A good amount of the US's prosperity lies on the back of wage slavery in other countries. The Scandinavian countries also have less income inequality. 40 percent of American workers make less than $20,000 a year and since there is no universal health care and cars are a necessity in most places people are largely going to be paying for these necessities out of their pocket in the US. I can assure you far fewer people are hurting in Scandinavia as far as money goes than in America. As far as middle class taxes, it's the right wing who wants the little people to take more of the tax burden away from the rich to make things more "fair".
Evidence that you really don't have a well-formed thesis. Your premise is that Scandinavians are more compassionate. My point of charitable contributions is that Americans are indeed compassionate people. As a people, we just feel that compassion is better channeled through private charities than governmental organizations, what with their characteristic inefficiency. I mean, have you ever done any significant business with the Federal government? Have you ever tried to navigate their Byzantine maze of regulations? I'm thinking not. Any intelligent person would say, "To hell with it," and try and do things on their own.
And this viewpoint is validated by the abysmal performance of most American governmental institutions, schools as one example. All are extremely well-funded, yet fail to deliver results. So Americans go through the private sector to make a difference. If Americans were not compassionate, we wouldn't be giving at all. You use Nordic government as evidence of compassion. I use the American avoidance of government as greater evidence of compassion.
What's more, you have this odd notion that if people are scribbling out a check to Blue Cross/Blue Shield, they aren't paying for their healthcare. In truth, they are indeed paying for it with higher taxes.
Further, you seem to not understand that the current gains enjoyed by Nordic countries is because they have begun dismantling many of the programs with which you're so enamored and moving to the right in terms of government philosophy. For example, the corporate tax rate in Sweden is now 22%, a full 13 points below what it is in the United States.
I mean, you whine about the United States corporations making money off wage slavery (Something I'd debate, but that's another thread), but you fail to understand the cause. Andy Grove, the CEO of Intel gave an interview a few years ago and was asked why American corporations put so much manufacturing overseas. The answer was a staggering one: Put two identical plants in Asia and America, and the American plant costs roughly twice as much to build and operate, with only a tenth of the difference being in higher wages. The rest was in taxes and regulations. That's a large part of why American manufacturing jobs have evaporated over the past forty years, the very jobs that gave people entree to the middle class in this country.
So you then complain about low American wages, but don't complain about a Rube Goldberg governmental system that drives manufacturing overseas.
Back to the original question. Your contention that Americans are less compassionate than their Swedish, Norwegian, Danish, and Finnish counterparts is just nonsense.
The poor aren't lazy, they work harder than anyone but get hardly any compensation for it. In Scandinavian countries the government makes sure everyone has a job, in this country if you can't compete in the job market you have no choice but to obtain whatever benefits you can. And not everyone can do odd jobs on Craigslist or be an entrepreneur, trust me I've tried and you'll never make enough to reliably pay the bills unless you're extremely lucky and talented.
The government will not just "hook you up" with a job in America like they can in Scandinavia - you need to bust your ass and it might take months to find a job. Which for many people is too long and they end up on the street without clean clothes for an interview or an address.
This country belongs to the capital owners and the employers, not everyone who lives here.
And did you ever consider that some of those able bodied people who are "milking" the system might have psychological or mental disabilities that prevent them from holding down a job? I had severe depression and anxiety that prevented me from being able to work for 5 years and only recently have I become able-minded enough to hold down a job. Most jobs these days require brains more than brawn so if anything they are even more disadvantaged then someone who is missing an arm or something. Even working a cash register is more intellectually challenging than you'd think, I have an IQ of 129 and even I struggled with it the first couple times.
You're kidding, right?
Here's the deal. Every five-year-old enters the American school system. During that time there are unbelievable numbers of programs to help that child maximize his or her education while there. And, as I pointed out, American schools are incredibly well-funded.
There are programs to engage parents. There are free lunch programs, free this, free that. There are job training programs by the boxcar. And all this is offered to the steady drumbeat of people telling the poor that education is the path to a materially better life. There are parent-teacher organizations. There are charities. There are foundations. So to claim that Americans don't support education shows that you're untethered from reality.
But this entire constellation of services doesn't do any good if people lack the gumption to use them. I mean, look. I'm really sorry that you struggled with mental health issues, I really am. But what you're essentially saying is, "Sweden would have taken better care of me that the United States." The problem is that the United States has a much larger and sprawling bureaucracy, one where resources get used much less efficiently. It has zip to do with a lack of compassion.
Comparing the US to Scandinavia is apples and oranges. The US has a population of over 300,000,000. Scandinavian countries have what, a population of 5-10,000,000? Not to mention their culture is very homogenized.
Americans are incredibly compassionate, to say we have no resources for the poor is absurd. There are plenty of scholarships available for poor children to attend college. There's SNAP, TANF, Section 8, school lunch programs, Boys and Girls Clubs, homeless shelters, Medicaid, WIC etc. We're hardly a third world country who lets poor people starve to death on the street.
And not for nothing, but I've been to Sweden. It's a beautiful place with beautiful people but I find they have wooden, boring personalities. I'll take my imperfect, trashy America any day of the week.
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