80% of guys in prison hurt/stole nobody/nothing (ethical, cocaine, lawyers)
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"Seriously, the US has slightly more crime than European countries, but have substantially more prisoners than Russia. Russia! The country that Soviet wannabe Vladimir Putin is 'president' of. We have more people in jail than that country and we're just totally ok with it."
Maybe the reason for that is because it is estimated that Russian government is so entwined with organized crime that it's estimated to be over fifty percent? You can't expect the criminals to be interested in incarceration. Especially where there are bribes to be had.
@el nox, I'd say that I know very few people that are like me, that completely turned away from a criminal existence. It should be understood that there's no way I've kept in contact with everyone I did time with or met over the years, so I'm unable to give a scientific response. However, of the people I have known, I'd say the single digits have completely and fully left a life of crime behind. But if I put a realistic estimation on it in terms of percentage, I'd say it's much higher, maybe 15-20%. That's not an unreasonable estimate...
My story is that I didn't find Christ or religion to change my life. I simply got to the point where that existence was physically and emotionally draining, and was 25 years old on my third strike. Any subsequent offense pretty much doom(s/ed) me, and while I didn't care about it before, it became very real to me. Probably the other huge factor was I got tired of being around those types of people; I no longer wanted those associations or to be around those people, I decided I wanted a better life for myself. But like you, I knew many guys who found jailhouse religion, I agree with you there...
I wasn't much different from anyone else, far as recidivism goes. I only went to prison once (38 months), but went to jail like five times in the following five years of my release. My point, though, is that recidivism statistics don't tell the whole story, because they paint a picture that someone who goes back to jail/prison is somehow "incurable". That was my point, and I didn't state that. But obviously, I've been to jail a bunch of times, so I know this "incurable" perception is false. Also, I agree with s previous poster who said probation/parole is designed for people to fail, because it is a part of the larger business of incarceration. Please don't mistake what I'm saying as it's impossible to overcome probation/parole/having a record, because that wouldn't be true. But the deck is definitely stacked, and I could devote an entire thread of insights on that topic alone...
I think that you haven't met a person who reformed from a criminal lifestyle is telling of the disconnect between people who "think" they have all the answers for crime/criminals (CO's, PO's, police, prosecutors, and anyone who generally agreed with their practices/judgements) and those who truly understand crime and the criminal mind (reformed criminals, sociologists, 'some' defense attorneys, and regular people who generally have lived intimately with those). But trust me on this one---you've met someone like me. You just don't know it, because like me, you haven't kept tabs on most people you had to officiate. Like I said, people like me are definitely in the minority, but we're not that rare. Sometimes, it takes a few times, unfortunately, for one to decide to change his life. More often, though, one doesn't...
Now, it is definitely rarer for someone to change after their first offense. But part of my problem with America's incarceration system, the part of the story that recidivism doesn't mention, is that jails and prisons aren't designed to rehabilitate. So all of the "lock me up and throw away the key types" are helping contribute to the crumbling family infrastructure in America. But this is just my take...
@lodestar, ou are right, it isn't fair for me to dismiss the other side...
And no, the causes of criminality shouldn't exempt criminals from punishment. The problem is that the punishment is by and large uneven, racist, and unaccounting of unique circumstances; instead, punishment is doled out on a one size fits all scale. The problem is that people are realistically sent into institutions that do more to build criminality and crime than rehabilitate....
I mostly agree ... however ... Sheriff Joe has the right idea.
El Nox
The first lawsuit against [Mod Cut] Phoenix's toughest sheriff in America, Joe Arpaio, was recently litigated, which will cost Phoenix taxpayers $6 per $100k in property appraisals, and this is only the beginning! It will take decades to litigate all these lawsuits against this egomaniac!
There's also the additional costs, when these inmates are finally released, which don't show up on taxpayer's radar screens.
If they're forced to become homeless, let's consider this: On a national average, it costs taxpayers $42.5k a year to have one homeless person on our streets!
Roughly the same cost of having them in prison!
Something to consider, the next time you cross a bridge and the bridge collapses!
Some posters on this thread seem to think that our prison costs are being paid for by the Chinese, that it doesn't effect their pocketbooks, in the least. The way some talk: Put them in prison, thrown away the key! And many are unaware of the costs: with both direct/indirect costs, $40-$50k a year per inmate!
I believe, in Texas, in the early 80's, during an unexpected whopper of a recession, thousands were released from their prisons, due to severe budget deficits.
Doesn't that scare anyone? The idea of any state suffering such a budget shortfall, they're forced to open the prison doors?
God forbid, we should sink into another Great Depression!
Easy to forget: Prisons are a luxury to any society!
no.
i wish this would happen in states like texas where ppl. would just shoot them to death once they try a crime upon release. would save a lot of money, time, and headache for everyone, the prison criminal guy included. finish it all. most if not all violent criminals should be killed off like they do in china or saudi arabia. just get rid of that guy or girl from the earth. huge waste of money and resources into a dead end life. pathetic.
Why do prisons cost so much? Why can't all the states send all their prisoners to a gigantic prison in the desert? If the prisoners escape, they have to cross the desert, and will be easy to catch, by sending helicopters to look for them with binoculars and high-tech gadgets to locate hidden people. It could drastically reduce the cost of prisons. Especially if all the prisoners are there for life, so their "crime university" education won't be used.
The real reason prisons cost so much is because we spend so much on them. Just like you can buy a pair of shoes for $25 or $2500. How much a pair of shoes costs depends on how much you spend on it. Ditto prisons.
65% are there for dope. Another 10% did what they did to GET dope or about dope debts, "turf', etc, cause dope costs 100x what it would cost if it's legal. Portugal has NO dope laws, hasn't had any for a decade and they are ok. We were ok before the 1914 dope laws, too. another 5% of prisoners are in prison for gambing, prostitution, guns, etc, no harm done to anyone. Stop locking them up and you'll have 4x as much room for the people who DO steal or harm others.
[Mod Cut]
If someone goes to prison for dope.
A) they are a major supplier
B) They are a parole violator who violated
The drug war is a plus/minus endeavor
The plus side.... crime went down as incarceration went up. No other logical explanation exists. There is more poverty, less opportunity yet crime went down?!?
The minus side.... drug use has gone up since the war started. I agree, pot is not bad (but not really good for you either). but really dude, the hyperbolic rant filled with lies helps nobody
Why do prisons cost so much? Why can't all the states send all their prisoners to a gigantic prison in the desert? If the prisoners escape, they have to cross the desert, and will be easy to catch, by sending helicopters to look for them with binoculars and high-tech gadgets to locate hidden people. It could drastically reduce the cost of prisons. Especially if all the prisoners are there for life, so their "crime university" education won't be used.
The real reason prisons cost so much is because we spend so much on them. Just like you can buy a pair of shoes for $25 or $2500. How much a pair of shoes costs depends on how much you spend on it. Ditto prisons.
No you can't send prisoners to a giant prison in the desert. For one thing who the heck would want to work there?
Prisons are expensive because of:
Facility cost and maintenance
Salaries and Benefits
Inmate medical care
Inmate food.
In California it costs around $53,000 a year to keep a person in prison. Prison guards make between 50 and 80k a year (more with overtime). Inmates are fed for around $2.40 a day. The feds took over the state prisons medical care because it was so bad that the appellate courts were inundated with lawsuits over prisoners dying from lack of medical care, had the state addressed the issue when they knew it was a problem medical care would cost far less.
A few years ago California spent more on prisons than they did on higher education (11 billion) the prison costs have dropped a bit since some of the inmate population is now being housed in county jails rather than in prison.
[*]Within three years of release, about two-thirds (67.8 percent) of released prisoners were rearrested.[*]Within five years of release, about three-quarters (76.6 percent) of released prisoners were rearrested.[*]Of those prisoners who were rearrested, more than half (56.7 percent) were arrested by the end of the first year.
Sometimes a sheriff or prosecutor will sit on some charges (say, 2 out of 5) and wait until the inmate is released after serving time on 3 and then file the other 2 to send him back. That's not supposed to happen but it does. Inmates can file a request to have all charges brought forward but some don't know to do it or whether there are charges floating out there. Depending on how these are counted it could look like recidivism when it isn't. Again - this gives voters the impression that the prosecutor is tough on crime....another way to get votes. Once in he system, inmates can become pawns in a political game.
Try not lying and see the real picture If someone goes to prison for dope.
A) they are a major supplier B) They are a parole violator who violated
That is not true, in most states a good number of people go to prison for simple possession, until recently in California all dope possession was a felony and get this- you would almost always go to prison if you had even a small amount of dope in your car or on you when you rode a bicycle, it was called "transportation of a controlled substance" and generally carried a 3 year prison term. The legislature finally put a stop to that and limited the circumstances under which that can be charged. In Nevada if you have ANY two prior felony convictions (could be for drug possession) and you get ANY third felony conviction (even for possessing a small amound of a drug) you can be sentenced to life in prison.
Quote:
Originally Posted by portlandnewb
The drug war is a plus/minus endeavor The plus side.... crime went down as incarceration went up. No other logical explanation exists. There is more poverty, less opportunity yet crime went down?!?
There have been a number of studies on that and the very most that crime was reduced by more people being imprisoned was 2-5%.(If I wasn't on my way to bed I would post a link, but if you want one remind me tomorrow) Crime was dropping before prison populations started growing. The ONLY thing you can logically say is that if a person is in prison they can't commit a crime during that time, but how many petty criminals can you afford to lock up @$53,000 a year to accomplish what? prevention of a few thefts?
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And many are unaware of the costs: with both direct/indirect costs, $40-$50k a year per inmate!
