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"Brain Death" is usually defined as the irreversible cessation of brain activity. However, the clinical tests used to declare brain death involve things like pupillary reflexes and spontaneous breathing, and sometimes also EEG. The problem is that these only test for cessation of brain activity, not irreversible cessation. It only takes some seconds of no blood flow for brain activity to stop; however it takes more than 10 minutes for the cessation of brain activity to be irreversible. This was demonstrated long ago in the infamous Soviet experiments on dogs:
The dogs lost all their responses, including pupillary reflex, very quickly. However their brain function was clearly not irreversibly lost.
This has major implications for, among other issues, organ donation. The laws pertaining to this often specify that brain death must be irreversible, but again, the clinical tests do not actually adhere to this standard!
There are too many people anyway and medicine is always cooking up new ways for everyone to live longer. Seems like the planet would be better off if we let the population dwindle back down to say, 1-2 billion people rather than the current 7+ billion. Besides, harvesting organs from dead people encourages a black market in organs which is pretty disgusting.
Living longer and living are not synonymous .....if you are "alive", but unfunctioning...what's the purpose? I wouldn't want to "be alive" in a hospital bed, hooked to machines for weeks and weeks after my "life" has ended...and for those wishing to donate organs, it's bad for the organs, and the recipient.
If you wish to be a donor, make your wished known about what care you want them to provide you at the end of your life.
Living longer and living are not synonymous .....if you are "alive", but unfunctioning...what's the purpose? I wouldn't want to "be alive" in a hospital bed, hooked to machines for weeks and weeks after my "life" has ended...and for those wishing to donate organs, it's bad for the organs, and the recipient.
If you wish to be a donor, make your wished known about what care you want them to provide you at the end of your life.
It's a legal issue for doctors. There also needs to be some consistency in standards, otherwise how does one know to trust that their life, even conscious life, will really be over before organs are harvested? Note that in the experiment I mentioned earlier, the dogs not only lived but resumed normal activities. And this happened AFTER they had absolutely ZERO brain waves for a full 10 minutes.
It's a legal issue for doctors. There also needs to be some consistency in standards, otherwise how does one know to trust that their life, even conscious life, will really be over before organs are harvested? Note that in the experiment I mentioned earlier, the dogs not only lived but resumed normal activities. And this happened AFTER they had absolutely ZERO brain waves for a full 10 minutes.
The topic of when should organ donation start is a very complicated subject. Part of the problem is that while Yes, the person could recover, there's also the possibility that while waiting for what would later turn out to be a confirmation of death, the other organs could start to fail as well, costing someone else (if not multiple people) their life(lives).
I'm not saying it's right to just harvest immediately though. If the above point was enough of a stance to start harvesting, then there would be almost an obligation to start taking people at random to divide up their organs(death of one for life of many).
It sounds like we do need better ways of quickly determining death, but in the absence of those? I can't say I know which way is better to go, I'm just glad I don't have to make those choices.
It's a legal issue for doctors. There also needs to be some consistency in standards, otherwise how does one know to trust that their life, even conscious life, will really be over before organs are harvested? Note that in the experiment I mentioned earlier, the dogs not only lived but resumed normal activities. And this happened AFTER they had absolutely ZERO brain waves for a full 10 minutes.
Have you participated in organ harvesting? Brain death determination?
I can assure you that organ harvesting is not done within a ten minute period of someone's being declared brain dead. It takes hours in most cases to get the harvesting teams flown in and the OR ready. There are consistent standards for determining brain death. In the hospitals where I worked, the physical exam is repeated prior to transport to the OR. Nobody wants to cut up any living person and great care is exercised to make certain that does not happen.
I have participated in organ harvesting as a nurse anesthetist. I will also be an organ donor, should any of my organs be acceptable upon my death. I am satisfied with the testing and examination criteria being used.
Have you participated in organ harvesting? Brain death determination?
I can assure you that organ harvesting is not done within a ten minute period of someone's being declared brain dead. It takes hours in most cases to get the harvesting teams flown in and the OR ready. There are consistent standards for determining brain death. In the hospitals where I worked, the physical exam is repeated prior to transport to the OR. Nobody wants to cut up any living person and great care is exercised to make certain that does not happen.
I have participated in organ harvesting as a nurse anesthetist. I will also be an organ donor, should any of my organs be acceptable upon my death. I am satisfied with the testing and examination criteria being used.
Thanks for sharing this. I just hope that other hospitals are similar enough to this, to minimize the chance that someone will have their organs taken while they are still "alive enough" to have a significant chance of recovery.
The problem doesn't worry me enough at this point for me to abandon organ donor status.
If you are not familiar with the exam for determination, you can look up the American Academy of Neurology criteria. It is very interesting and exacting.
Thank you for being a potential donor. IMHO, it is one of the most generous things anyone can do and saves lives and/or improves quality of life. One donor can potentially help many people.
Last edited by Achelois; 07-29-2016 at 11:18 PM..
Reason: Clarity
Thanks for sharing this. I just hope that other hospitals are similar enough to this, to minimize the chance that someone will have their organs taken while they are still "alive enough" to have a significant chance of recovery.
The problem doesn't worry me enough at this point for me to abandon organ donor status.
Glad to hear that.
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