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It's not the act.
It's the normalizing of poor or bad decisions and choices so that you don't have to feel bad for what you do.
That whole concept makes the world a crappier place.
Well, I don't think over-drinking, by itself, is something to feel guilty about. Drinking to the point of unconsciousness is certainly unwise, but I don't think it's morally wrong and it certainly isn't an invitation to rape or in any way comparable to rape.
Nope, getting assaulted doesn't indicate a problem with alcohol. Drinking to the point where you pass out does seem to be a problem to me, irrespective of whether someone gets sexually assaulted while passed out...
As I posted earlier, it may not be indicative of a pattern, a problematic pattern. In the cases where Freshman girls were involved, it may have been their first party involving alcohol, or their second one. That is not uncommon. So drinking to excess, i.e. beyond one's capacity, is sometimes due to inexperience, and not knowing one's limits or not knowing how to "hold" one's alcohol (=by eating a meal while drinking). One person can pass out on half the amount or less that affects another person similarly.
I disagree, it really isn't that hard not to get "passed out drunk". I only personally know about one or two people who have ever gotten that wasted.
It's funny how the OP only talks about young women and the dangers they face when they get incoherently intoxicated but it is dangerous for anyone man or woman to get that drunk.
I remember an older guy I work with telling me to never get so wasted that I don't know what is going on around me.
I agree---it's dangerous for either sex (although women are more likely than men to be sexually assaulted). That's why I did post "guys as well" as bolded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzcat22
On threads about college girls who get raped/sexually assaulted when they are passed out from drinking, there are always comments about how we all have been there (drank excessively in college). Well, no, not all of us. Never loved the taste of alcohol or the sensation of altered consciousness and I didn't go to a college with fraternities nor did I attend lots of parties. I know I am an outlier in this, as in most things, and my experience isn't typical.
But-----drinking to the point where you pass out or get alcohol poisoning? Can this really be that common? Yeah, a drink or two or three, but how much are these girls drinking? (Guys as well.) And is it pathological---a sign of future alcohol issues or just a rite of passage that is done in college and then never/seldom again?
And please understand----this is not saying that these girls deserved to be assaulted. But when they talk about the crime that happened to them and what their needs will be in the future (like counseling to deal with post-traumatic stress), none ever says that this made them realize that they may have a problem with alcohol and need to address that.
Just trying to understand how prevalent this is. Is it just frat parties? Most college parties in general? If there's 100 people attending, how many are getting that drunk? If it's just a few, does it mean those individuals do have a problem? If it's lots, then do they all have problems---or is this just training to eventually (after college) learn to drink responsibly?
Someone who passes out from drinking may or may not have a problem with alcohol.
Really, the issue I have with this is how you are expecting that someone who is speaking about being assaulted should, in the same breath, take some sort of responsibility for said assault. As I said earlier, until people get it through their heads that being passed out drunk does not, in any way, shape or form, indicate consent to sexual acts, or put fault on the victim, nothing is going to change.
I in no way suggested that this woman was responsible for the assault. Not sure how you are seeing/reading that into my posts. I would be just as concerned about young women who drink to the point of passing out even if they went to an all-girls school (yeah, I am sure that there have been a few instances of lesbian sexual assault, but it's not male bashing to acknowledge that the majority of attacks on women are by men). It's the drinking to excess that I was focusing on.
My comment about the women who are victims seeking help for their drinking just reflects my personal desire to experience growth about bad situations----they will always be victims of the assault but hopefully they can learn to thrive beyond and in spite of this....and drinking so excessively is not thriving, in my opinion.
I do understand your point, Ruth---and I think/hope you may be right. The vast majority are probably just experimenting/conforming to peer pressure and may grow out of it during/after college. A few may need some help and I hope they get it.
The difference I see, and I went to college in the Sixties and Seventies, is that then there were very few of us who drank hard liquor. Most of us drank 3.2 beer. For an experienced drinker it's difficult to drink enough liquid to get crazy on 3.2 beer.
And we didn't have alcohol available at nearly every social function like it is today.
Now young people drink more hard liquor which is risky when your brain isn't even fully developed until around age twenty-two. And it seems that a social event is not complete without having alcohol available.
Some will grow out of the habit and others will continue on to full-fledged addiction. I do know that in my home state addiction statistics are on the rise.
Perhaps it's fair to say that pathological drinking is a rite of passage for many.
My comment about the women who are victims seeking help for their drinking just reflects my personal desire to experience growth about bad situations----they will always be victims of the assault but hopefully they can learn to thrive beyond and in spite of this....and drinking so excessively is not thriving, in my opinion.
The fact that you are putting their excessive drinking and the sexual assault perpetrated on them in the same sentence shows that you simply do.not.get.it.
They should not be in the same breath. Just as what she wore, or where she was, should not come near a conversation about sexual assault.
The more we as a society try to sand off the edges of consent- by saying "well, gee, he was drinking a lot" or "obviously she wanted sex, look at what she was wearing"- the more difficult it will be to change attitudes.
"She was drinking excessively" is not a legal defense to rape or sexual assault. So, why should it be a moral defense? Why are we, as a society, be saying outright, or implying, that the victim of sexual assault brought it upon themselves?
Screw that noise. Seriously.
ETA: If there is genuine concern that someone has a problem with alcohol, certainly that should be brought up, in an appropriate manner and at an appropriate time.
I do understand your point, Ruth---and I think/hope you may be right. The vast majority are probably just experimenting/conforming to peer pressure and may grow out of it during/after college. A few may need some help and I hope they get it.
I'm not saying there aren't problem drinkers, I'm just saying it would be wrong to assume that. Some of the girls at those parties are only first-time or second-time drinkers. But if someone parties their way through college, as some do, I think the party lifestyle may be masking a problem, in some or possibly most, cases. In my observation of the parental generation, people who did that often go on to live a cocktail party lifestyle, which may, for some, hide a problem with alcoholism.
Oh yeah, another thing. Let's say someone is speaking about their experience with assault. They are also getting treatment for their issues with alcohol. Who's anyone to say that they themselves should be linking their problem drinking with the assault?
The difference I see, and I went to college in the Sixties and Seventies, is that then there were very few of us who drank hard liquor. Most of us drank 3.2 beer. For an experienced drinker it's difficult to drink enough liquid to get crazy on 3.2 beer.
Perhaps where you lived, but in many states the legal drinking age for all alcohol, not just beer, was 18, 19, or 20 in the 1970s.
Nevermind getting an upperclassman to buy booze for you.
Most everyone has to learn for themselves how alcohol affects them. And for most that happens in the college years. For the most part, we figure it out, know how much we can drink and go on to lead normal lives. Just a part of growing up.
Till you kill someone.
My family is dealing with a horrific incident that happened just last week. Our youngest son's girlfriend went tubing on the river with a bunch of college friends. She is a senior in college, 21 years old. They drank all day long. Had a blast. Then she got in her car and planned on driving home - a five minute drive. She swerved into oncoming traffic. A 24 year old man died at the scene, and his wife, who was five months pregnant, was seriously hurt.
She delivered a stillborn baby the next day.
At the scene, witnesses saw the drunk driver jump out of her car and begin trying to toss liquor bottles under the car. She was wearing a bikini. Meanwhile, a young man was dying in his wife's arms in the car in front of her. But she really had to get rid of evidence, didn't she? It did her no good - when the police got there, it was obvious that she was incredibly drunk. She couldn't even stand up straight.
Now this 21 year old young woman is sitting in jail charged with three felonies. So she's probably going to spend her "growing up" years in jail. At least she may not have to pay for her last year of college.
And a young woman has lost her husband and her baby.
The people who live in neighborhoods along the river have been complaining for YEARS that the partying has gotten completely out of control - much worse than it used to be, though tubing the river has been a popular thing for college students to do for decades.
I think it's gotten worse. I was no angel in college, but getting drunk was usually confined to the occasional frat party or the occasional weekend - and it didn't entail passing out. It was more like 5 or 6 beers over the course of an evening, not 10 or 12 or more. And like someone else mentioned, "hard liquor" was the exception, not the rule. Just my own personal experience.
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