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I think that most people would agree that bigotry in ANY form is both wrong and stupid (with very few exceptions, such as bigotry against slaveholders and/or child molesters) and that the world would be a much better place if most kinds of bigotry did not exist. However, I am beginning to form the opinion that some people on both ends of the political spectrum would like to make it illegal for people to publicly express bigoted and/or unenlightened opinions if it was in their power to do so.
So, do you agree or disagree that people should continue to be free to publicly express whatever view they want, as long as such opinions do not result in actions that cause physical harm to someone? (And, if so, would you change the last part of my question to "cause ANY kind of harm to someone"?)
I think it's easy to distill what makes certain speech offensive. And it has nothing to do with the speech itself. There are a few obvious examples of harassment, and some not-so-obvious:
Blatant:
- Following someone around, shouting insults, getting close and screaming, communicating threats
- "Protesting" via blocking entry to a building, vehicle, corridor, or other destination of the targeted party
Less apparent:
- Embellishing accounts of interactions with targeted person with exaggerations and inclusion of elements which never occurred. It's very easy to be convincing when the other party agrees to certain basics of the account, "foot in the door", and you tack on additional, untrue statements to tarnish a reputation with the intent to impede, extort, or slander.
Freedom of speech is freedom of opinion, and it needs to remain opinion, refraining from calling your personal opinions facts and otherwise damaging yours and the named party's credibility. You can discuss what you like with your friends about your feelings, but don't make untrue statements. LYING can be a crime, dependent on the context. Defamation is an intentional tort, which is most often pursued in a civil suit and remedied with damages assessed.
Freedom of speech is freedom of opinion, and it needs to remain opinion, refraining from calling your personal opinions facts and otherwise damaging yours and the named party's credibility. You can discuss what you like with your friends about your feelings, but don't make untrue statements. LYING can be a crime, dependent on the context. Defamation is an intentional tort, which is most often pursued in a civil suit and remedied with damages assessed.
Freedom of speech isn't merely freedom of opinion. It is freedom of expression, and that includes calling one's opinions facts. It also isn't illegal to damage another's credibility. It also isn't illegal to make untrue statements, with a few exceptions. Lying is very rarely an actual crime. You can't lie under oath, and you can't lie to federal investigators. But in general, lying is far from criminal.
Freedom of speech isn't merely freedom of opinion. It is freedom of expression, and that includes calling one's opinions facts. It also isn't illegal to damage another's credibility. It also isn't illegal to make untrue statements, with a few exceptions. Lying is very rarely an actual crime. You can't lie under oath, and you can't lie to federal investigators. But in general, lying is far from criminal.
Acknowledging Making False Statements and Perjury, you're agreeing with me, while still trying to tell me I'm wrong.
All it takes to constitute defamation, which would be the civil catch-all for the cases that did not constitute a crime under the first two categories, is making untrue statements to someone other than the subject of the aforementioned statement.
Acknowledging Making False Statements and Perjury, you're agreeing with me, while still trying to tell me I'm wrong.
Let's look at what you actually said:
You can discuss what you like with your friends about your feelings, but don't make untrue statements. LYING can be a crime
Lying to my friends is never a crime. In what case would a lie that I say to my friends be a crime?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddm2k
All it takes to constitute defamation, which would be the civil catch-all for the cases that did not constitute a crime under the first two categories, is making untrue statements to someone other than the subject of the aforementioned statement.
That's false. Defamation requires more than making false statements about someone. Those false statements must be statements of fact, not opinion. If I say I think a lady down the street is the ugliest woman on earth, it doesn't matter if she is actually Miss America. In addition, most states require that the defamatory statements were either known to be false when they were made or the speaker was negligent in trying to determine if they were true. Finally, those statements must have damaged the person being defamed. If I lie and tell a third party that you have an IQ of 200, that's not defamation.
This is all beside the point, though, because this isn't even a crime. It's a civil issue.
You can discuss what you like with your friends about your feelings, but don't make untrue statements. LYING can be a crime
Lying to my friends is never a crime. In what case would a lie that I say to my friends be a crime?
That's false. Defamation requires more than making false statements about someone. Those false statements must be statements of fact, not opinion. If I say I think a lady down the street is the ugliest woman on earth, it doesn't matter if she is actually Miss America. In addition, most states require that the defamatory statements were either known to be false when they were made or the speaker was negligent in trying to determine if they were true. Finally, those statements must have damaged the person being defamed. If I lie and tell a third party that you have an IQ of 200, that's not defamation.
This is all beside the point, though, because this isn't even a crime. It's a civil issue.
Yes, that's why there's a hearing and you don't just automatically get a bill in the mail.
I heard of an interesting interpretation of free speech involving a " street preacher" and a woman in Minneapolis.
A nut was standing on the street corner yelling " all women are whores" at women who passed by.
He yelled that at a woman as she approached and as she was going way.
She got fed up and found a cop and said she wanted to press harassment charges.
A public defender got a judge to throw out the case.
The judge ruled he did not not yell "you are a *****" nor use her name in the accusation.
By yelling " all women are whores" he was just stating his opinion.
I don't think there would've been a case even if he had used her name in private. Saying Miss Smith is a ***** is still expressing an opinion. Yelling it on a street corner might be a different story due to the potential for harassment. But telling a woman she is a ***** or telling a friend that she is a ***** is probably protected by the First Amendment.
...Speech of all kinds should always be legal so long as it wouldn't reasonably be expected to cause physical harm...
If that were the case a couple of hundred years ago, we would still be British subjects.
Sometimes, speech that can be expected to result in harm is necessary.
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