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Was the Declaration of independence a deceptive document for the times. Consider this. The year is 1776 and their is no internet ,no phone, nothing modern. The local meeting places were churches, saloons and schools.
It is true that the "local meeting places were churches, saloons and schools." Add to that, literally, the public square, and pamphleteers. Thomas Paine's "Common Sense" along with the Declaration of Independence circulated quite widely, within days of their issuance. Not quite as fast as a viral Youtube but as we saw fast enough.
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Originally Posted by Faithfullizhe
Now with the United Sates being newly minted they need deception to lure folks in. What better than to tell everyone that in America you are free and created equal. Now the founding fathers were deists, not Christian.
If the founding fathers really meant that all men were created equal why did they have slaves? Slavery actually grew in the next 90 years before the civil war. If the words of all men were created equal really meant something they would have implemented it right away, at their own estates. They were all filthy rich. They would all grow even richer.
You are applying 21st Century standards to the late 18th Century. At that time slavery was common throughout the world and across cultures. Why is there such an impulse to wear the hairshirt and punish ourselves for past sins that are long behind us? For example:
The Egyptians enslaved the Hebrews;
African tribes enslaved African tribes, when they didn't kill the prisoners taken;
The tradition of slavery, of course, was not unique to southern Negro slavery. The entity that because the U.S. was trying, during this Enlightenment era, to make progress. That progress was slow and halting, with some steps backward. Calling it a "deception" because a new human, complete with universal suffrage and total equality of result (as opposed to opportunity) is a bit strong.
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Originally Posted by Faithfullizhe
If the time is 1778 and you are in a saloon drinking and you hear about how great America is and freedom you will have from the ship's captain who is selling passage. Would you go? Then after a long voyage you wind up in the ghetto's of New York.
You must be thinking of 1890 or later, not 1778. The Lower East Side ghettos and tenements sprang up during the 1800's as a result of the influx, even flood, of penniless immigrants. People sought refuge from the stultifying, at best, and tyrannical at worst, culture of Europe. The waves started during the late 1840's with the Irish Potato Famine and the aborted uprisings in Austria-Hungary, modern Germany and France and accelerated from there. In the late 1800's, after the assassination of Czar Alexander II, people, especially Jews, began pouring out of Russia and Eastern Europe. Ghettos were inevitable as the people coming almost never had any money. One set of my ancestors, arriving from the modern Hungarian/Slovak border area had a house full of servants in Europe, but were flat broke when they arrived here during what must have been the WW I era.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faithfullizhe
I say strong evidence exists that the Declaration of Independence was mere propaganda. They needed folks to do the work and needed to give them hope. Truth is some made it, most did not. If all men were created equal really meant anything it would have been implemented right away. We would have had no civil war or any of this mess. Evidence suggests the founding fathers were hypocritical liars. You agree or disagree.
There is no question that it was written as a galvanizing and promotional piece. To expect if it "really meant anything it would have been implemented right away" is dreaming in Technicolor. The Continental Congress wasn't a government. If they hadn't won the war there never would have been a government; they would have been hung as traitors. A conclave of rebels gathering in Philadelphia had as much power as a group of CD posters to make any immediate changes. And while not perfect, the U.S. Constitution and its amendments were a lot better than any then-existing alternative.
...The year is 1776 and their is no internet ,no phone, nothing modern....
You preface your "debate" with this, but then you completely ignore it in the rest of your assertions. In other words, you are using your modern knowledge and sensibilities to discuss the thoughts and actions of men 245 years ago. You're not thinking how they thought back then; you're still thinking how people think today. By the way, this makes your premise baseless and without merit.
You preface your "debate" with this, but then you completely ignore it in the rest of your assertions. In other words, you are using your modern knowledge and sensibilities to discuss the thoughts and actions of men 245 years ago. You're not thinking how they thought back then; you're still thinking how people think today. By the way, this makes your premise baseless and without merit.
Good one! That is called anachronism.
Also, it is important to judge historical event based on the times. A true historian would read on the culture, the views, sentiments, economic situation, survival pressures, and on and on. Granted, I am not saying that owning another individual is right. I am saying that people live life as they see it at the present they are living. The type of present does influence and shape their views, more, ethics, and ways to live life.
The Founding Father were no different than we are today. They had their strengths and weaknesses, also, they were still a product of their environment. Actually, some of them struggled with the issue of slavery.
Others, convinced themselves that slavery was right while other were against it.
The claimed made in another message that they were deist, well, some were but no as the comment seem to portray all of them to be. Many were Christians, actually, a few were pastors also.
But, again, your provided a good comment. Some people have an anachronistic judgment of people that lived in such long ago past.
You have a great day.
elamigo
Was the Declaration of independence a deceptive document for the times. Consider this. The year is 1776 and their is no internet ,no phone, nothing modern. The local meeting places were churches, saloons and schools.
Now with the United Sates being newly minted they need deception to lure folks in. What better than to tell everyone that in America you are free and created equal. Now the founding fathers were deists, not Christian.
If the founding fathers really meant that all men were created equal why did they have slaves? Slavery actually grew in the next 90 years before the civil war. If the words of all men were created equal really meant something they would have implemented it right away, at their own estates. They were all filthy rich. They would all grow even richer.
If the time is 1778 and you are in a saloon drinking and you hear about how great America is and freedom you will have from the ship's captain who is selling passage. Would you go? Then after a long voyage you wind up in the ghetto's of New York.
I say strong evidence exists that the Declaration of Independence was mere propaganda. They needed folks to do the work and needed to give them hope. Truth is some made it, most did not. If all men were created equal really meant anything it would have been implemented right away. We would have had no civil war or any of this mess. Evidence suggests the founding fathers were hypocritical liars. You agree or disagree.
Sounds like you don't think much of deists.
My recommendation: Ditch the Critical Theory propaganda and just READ some history.
I say strong evidence exists that the Declaration of Independence was mere propaganda. They needed folks to do the work and needed to give them hope. Truth is some made it, most did not. If all men were created equal really meant anything it would have been implemented right away. We would have had no civil war or any of this mess. Evidence suggests the founding fathers were hypocritical liars. You agree or disagree.
Do you know what happened to many of the Signers? Surely they knew they were risking personal safety to form a new nation. Some had their houses burned, etc. Do some research on that, it was then, and is still not pretty.
One of the premises of the OP, indirect as it may be, is that outside of the U.S of that time there were utopias where natural rights were across and board and these societies were free from oppression, slavery, cronyism, warfare, castes, in-fighting, abuses of power, etc. Its a comparison to something that didn't exist, an idealized society like the ones the Star Ship Enterprise sometimes encountered (and really weren't that on closer inspection).
The OP hasn't responded in three days so maybe they gave up.
One of the premises of the OP, indirect as it may be, is that outside of the U.S of that time there were utopias where natural rights were across and board and these societies were free from oppression, slavery, cronyism, warfare, castes, in-fighting, abuses of power, etc. Its a comparison to something that didn't exist, an idealized society like the ones the Star Ship Enterprise sometimes encountered (and really weren't that on closer inspection).
The OP hasn't responded in three days so maybe they gave up.
Probably because they are a mindless troll looking to stir the pot rather than put forth reasonable counter-arguments for their supposed "beliefs". I applaud those who shot down that nonsense with reason and facts, anything I was going to write became redundant well before the end of the 2nd page of comments.
I always laugh when I see a young person think that because people living 250 years did not have the technology we have today, that they were somehow "uneducated and dull". The mere fact that they could survive and thrive, creating the greatest form of government the world had seen to date, WITHOUT the technology, proves otherwise. These folks who believe themselves to be superior to their ancestors, would be the source of much amusement if a time machine existed such that they could be transported back to those times - instead of becoming "rulers" themselves, they would likely be considered the village idiot. Being able to access Google from one's IPhone does not embody one with wisdom.
Actually they were educated. Reading was taught separately from writing (much like today where kids are not taught legible script, some can only print) since it was considered necessary to read Scripture. By 1790, Alexandria VA with a population of 2,748 had five newspapers. At the time of the Revolution, Williamsburg had three papers (they all had the same name the Virginia Gazette which made it confusing) and its population was estimated to be 1,880.
The Declaration if Independence had much to do with the frustrations of dealing with bad management from England. It is an aspirational document, describing the way things should be, but had not been in the recent past.
When the document states that “all men are created equal” they of course meant all Anglo Saxon males. The phrase has been redefined in our imagination to include quite literally all humans.
Great responses! You can't just read some basic historical facts from over 200 years ago and make assumptions. You have to explore the world these people were living in, read their letters and read writings from the time period. You have to put yourself in their time period before you can even attempt to understand anything from that time period.
Another thing to consider is that many states would just have chosen not to join the U.S. if that meant they had to do away with slavery. I imagine that might have lead to the south forming their own country at some point, independent of the north, and a continuation of slavery beyond 1865.
The Founding Fathers most certainly thought about slavery, the morality of it, and questioning how they could start a new country with slavery entrenched in its economic system. The problem is that there was no country, and wouldn't be one unless there were compromises. They focused on the first problem and that was uniting the independent colonies. They certainly knew that slavery would have to be dealt with at some point.
I'm paraphrasing here, but something Lincoln said in the Douglas-Lincoln debates was that he knows southerners were born into this system that uses slavery as its backbone. He said slavery was wrong, but he didn't condemn every slave owner. He also said if everyone were to start fresh no one would think to start the institution of slavery from scratch, it was something that they were handed, but something that needed to end.
Many of these people you consider "rich" were considered so based purely on the number of slaves and the amount of land they owned. It's easy to look back and say, I personally would have given everything away and started from absolutely nothing if it meant the end of slavery. If you go into studying history with that belief, then you will never understand anyone from a time period other than your own.
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