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Old 10-11-2008, 09:58 AM
 
Location: Southeast
4,301 posts, read 7,032,932 times
Reputation: 1464

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I don't know if restructuring is the right term to use, but my interpretation of "American Capitalism" is that every so often, someone needs to hit the "reset" button. The system works great, especially at first, but eventually it becomes overdeveloped and problematic. Government intervention into what is supposed to be a "free market" certainly doesn't help - if you interfere with the ebb and flow of natural markets, you can't expect good results.
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Old 10-11-2008, 10:31 AM
 
877 posts, read 2,077,003 times
Reputation: 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
If ya ask me the drug trade is the epitome of capitalism.
The drug trade is capitalism with the worst excesses of government intervention. Because the government has made certain substances illegal, the market is forced underground where buyers and sellers have to compete with one another and the government.

Fierce competition leads to murder, burglary, and other violent crimes because the government is trying to suppress the market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
So you're actually saying that there is no fairness and that the government is irrelevant.
I am saying that the government is incapable of imposing "fairness" onto a market. Any interference will impose on one to advantage another. $1 widgets will help the bad company stay in business and prohibits the good company from realizing its profit potential.

The only way that a market can be "fair" is if there is equal access to the market and equal opportunity to reach customers and set prices. At that point, everyone succeeds or fails according to their own drive and ability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Or are you saying that everyone should fend for themselves, which actually comes down to social and economical Darwinism?
No, government has a place, and that is to limit the free market and provide a social safety net. Libertarians say that the market should be free to run wild absent government intervention, Conservatives say that the market should be free, but the government exists to provide services and ensure uniformity of opportunity across the country. These services are paid for by limiting growth of the market by taxation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Which is cool with me cauz I'm fine with taking from the rich and giving to the needy.
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need," right?
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Old 10-11-2008, 09:14 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,568 posts, read 16,231,007 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by Frankie117
Quote:
- if you interfere with the ebb and flow of natural markets, you can't expect good results.
I guess the crime bosses would agree with you.
Who says that crime doesn't pay, right?


Originally Posted by zman0
Quote:
Fierce competition leads to murder, burglary, and other violent crimes because the government is trying to suppress the market.
LoL drug trade is the epitome of capitalism because it is a crime; being a drug addict literaly means that you will shop (for drugs) till you drop.
The pusher is assured that once their 'clients' get a 1st line for free they'll become so addicted to the drugs that they'll keep buying their product at literally any price ( even selling their body and perform sexual favours) to get their fix.
And what is worse of all is that drugs are literally designed for mass consumption; you would literally become a thief of your own wallet if you did not (heavily) invest in the drug trade because it is so lucrative.

To give the drug cartels free reign means that you will not hinder the pushers to sell their products to little children.
Once we start on cannibalizing our children (read: have changed our children into addicts of luxury) it will spell the beginning of the end for humanity.

Quote:
The only way that a market can be "fair" is if there is equal access to the market and equal opportunity to reach customers and set prices.
Equality is an illusion because nobody is identical, not even identical twins.

Quote:
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need," right?
Nope, more like Arbeit macht frei*.
I bet every drugcartel tells this to their farmers who are forced to grow drugs.


Quote:
* "Arbeit macht frei" is a German phrase meaning "work brings freedom" or "work shall set you free/will free you" or "work liberates" and, literally in English, "work makes (one) free".
The slogan is known in the English speaking world for being placed at the entrances to a number of Nazi concentration camps.
Source: Arbeit macht frei - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 10-12-2008, 01:32 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,100 posts, read 39,254,467 times
Reputation: 4937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Equality is an illusion because nobody is identical, not even identical twins.
I might suggest that your attempt to advise Americans on the issue of American Capitalism is for naught - as you are completely lacking in knowledge of how capitalism REALLY works - you have had NO EXPERIENCE with a true capitalistic system.
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Old 10-12-2008, 06:52 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,621 posts, read 19,159,948 times
Reputation: 21738
Quote:
Originally Posted by cap1717 View Post
Long long before the current financial crisis, I was convinced that much more "regulation" of market forces (or what I consider to be "pure" capatilism) was needed in order to avoid essential "unfairness" in our economy.
No amount of regulation can ever counter-act the stupidity of people.

Prove to me that buying a house with 0% down is better than putting 20% down, or that buying a $3,000 plasma TV on credit and paying $2,000 in interest is more intelligent than saving money for 6 months and paying cash for the TV and not paying any interest. Prove that buying a car with no money down for 72 months is better than putting 20% down on a 2-3 year loan.

The attitude by Americans that "I want it, I want it now and I don't care how much it costs" is why the US is in the mess its in, and you can't regulate attitudes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cap1717 View Post
Deregulation allows large companies to move their operations offshore to avoid paying taxes.
Companies will move offshore with or without regulations if they will profit from it.

You want to operate a plant in the US that makes widgets and pay your employees $20/hour with another $10/hour in benefits, taxes and regulations, fine.

I can go to another country and start a widget making business and buy the same widget making machine from the same German manufacturer you bought yours from.

For what you pay one employee in a week, I can pay 4 employees for a month. Or I can go to another country and for what you pay one employee for a week, I can hire 20 and pay them for a month.

I will make widgets and sell them cheaper than you ever could and I will import them to the US and run you out of business.

What are you going to do now, levy import taxes, duties and tariffs on my widgets so that you can compete?

Fine. You are 300 Million people. I can sell mine to 6 Billion people. From the massive profits I make, I will buy your company and shut it down, then Americans will have to buy my imported widgets at ridiculously high prices because of the import taxes, duties and tariffs.

What are you going to do now? Pass a law that prohibits foreign ownership? Fine, I'll get front-men to create a front-company from inside America to buy your factory and shut it down.

You can't win.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cap1717 View Post
Deregulation allows companies to operate with little, if any concern for their employees, and to move factories to areas with incredibly inexpensive labor, Labor Unions have been destroyed by "toxic" capatilism, and the total "effect" has been first a stagnation, and then a sinking of the "standard of living" for a large proportion of the population.
That always was an inevitability. The wages and standard of living of Americans will continue to fall until the wages and standard of living of those in developing nations rises to meet it at an equilibrium point.

You have two options: Do nothing or start WW III.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cap1717 View Post
Wages are declining in comparison to "cost of living", and have been doing so for many years now.
Another inevitability and one caused entirely by Americans.

Americans consume 29% of the world's non-oil resources although they're a measly 4% of the world's population.

If the 1 Billion Indians had the same standard of living as Americans, they would consume 87% percent of the world's non-oil resources.

If Indians are consuming 87% of the world's non-oil resources, then Americans cannot consume 29%.

It's 4th grade math.

Americans will reduce their resource use to a more manageable 12%-13% or the rest of the world will reduce it for them involuntarily.

The problem is that in reducing American resource consumption by half, American will also reduce its GDP significantly, and 50% of Americans will be unemployed and never work the rest of their lives.

Either accept it and learn to live with it, or start WW III to control the distribution of world resources and ensure that Americans will always have a larger share to consume to excess.

If you haven't figured it out yet, that's why you're in Iraq, so that you can set yourselves up to make that power move and control the world's resources.
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Old 10-12-2008, 10:38 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,568 posts, read 16,231,007 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by Greatday
Quote:
- you have had NO EXPERIENCE with a true capitalistic system.
LoL I see crimes happening everyday and to me this is all what capitalism is; the strong taking advantage of the weak and unknowing.
White-collar criminals are far more dangerous to society than a 'simple' serial killer because they're able to crash whole economies and if they truly know what they are doing they can even collapse the global economy.
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Old 10-13-2008, 08:16 AM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,100 posts, read 39,254,467 times
Reputation: 4937
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
LoL I see crimes happening everyday and to me this is all what capitalism is; the strong taking advantage of the weak and unknowing.
White-collar criminals are far more dangerous to society than a 'simple' serial killer because they're able to crash whole economies and if they truly know what they are doing they can even collapse the global economy.

As I said - you have no experience with what Capitalism is - you are ignorant about the United States
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Old 10-13-2008, 09:57 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,568 posts, read 16,231,007 times
Reputation: 1573
Originally Posted by Greatday
Quote:
As I said - you have no experience with what Capitalism is - you are ignorant about the United States
And you are ignorant of the fact that crime is the biggest supporter of 'personal freedom' and of less involvement of the government.
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Old 10-13-2008, 10:13 AM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
3,088 posts, read 5,354,076 times
Reputation: 1626
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday View Post
As I said - you have no experience with what Capitalism is - you are ignorant about the United States
And I believe that this forum is to be held to "especially high standards", so that calling other posters "ignorant" is likely not a good idea. Disagree all you want, but do it politely and with facts, not with ad hominum attacks!
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Old 10-15-2008, 04:24 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
4,714 posts, read 8,460,378 times
Reputation: 1052
Quote:
Originally Posted by zman0 View Post
I am saying that the government is incapable of imposing "fairness" onto a market. Any interference will impose on one to advantage another. $1 widgets will help the bad company stay in business and prohibits the good company from realizing its profit potential.

The only way that a market can be "fair" is if there is equal access to the market and equal opportunity to reach customers and set prices. At that point, everyone succeeds or fails according to their own drive and ability.

You might benefit from reading the history of the regulation of the American stock exchanges. I think that your point is not at all borne out by history.

Also, there is no such thing as a "free market." It is a chimera.
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