Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
From a financial perspective, solar does not pencil out even with subsidies in many areas. Here for example, with little sun, large trees shading roofs, and the inexpensive hydro power, and mild climate it just isn't practical.
The following comments are made for one battery, but you would probably require more than one battery to get normal home electrical requirements.
The Tesla battery is 6.4 kWh. So at 100% discharge daily that is 2.336 Mwh per year (6.4*365/1000). I pay $120.49 for a mWh of electricity (generation and distribution) so that is $281.46 for that much electricity per year.
The Tesla battery costs $3000 and is guaranteed for 10 years (or $300 a year). So we are already behind even before we have added in any real life considerations.
Real life considerations are the cost of finance, the cost of generating the electricity (solar or wind) which can be considerable, variations in usage (no one uses exactly 6.4 kWh per day, or of any number) and efficiency losses, etc. DC-AC inverter not included, so unless your home is wired for DC you need a converter. If your home is wired for DC only you will undoubtedly be breaking electrical requirements for your municipality.
Solarcity is a huge scam to lure people to apply for govt programs to subsidize a portion of the cost while keeping people under payment for a very long time. Assuming people will at some point lose their homes due to job loss or financial hardships. They have your house on lien if you can't pay. How does that sound?
There is no free lunch when Solarcity employs hundreds of people calling to get people to sign up. Their business is to sign-up collect the govt subsidy, they are not in the business of running a full fledge solar panel business.
From a financial perspective, solar does not pencil out even with subsidies in many areas. Here for example, with little sun, large trees shading roofs, and the inexpensive hydro power, and mild climate it just isn't practical. I do have several small solar installations that I use for such things as charging the riding mower battery and running a pond fountain when sunny, but the best areas for solar power are those with a sunny and hot climate where AC is used much of the year, or a cold winter climate that still gets sun and uses electricity for heating.
You live in an abnormal area from a power cost standpoint and while your conclusions might be correct for the Pacific Northwest, they are just flat wrong for most of the rest of the country. PV has a simple payback in Washington DC of about 5 years. That's a huge return on investment.
Tesla makes bid for Solar City. No one wants Solar City, it had a flawed business model and the other big names are eating it's lunch...breakfast and dinner too.
Tesla's battery factory, a joke. Nothing is going on over there. Literally nothing. There are the PR shots but not much else.
Tesla's cars are outdated and look like it. Musk is saying Tesla will need billions to refresh and update. No kidding.
The Tesla scam won't hit until after the elections but then watch out. Another Solyndra.
The whole Solar City battery thing? A flop. No one wants it because no one needs it. As big utilities keep diving in deeper and deeper into solar, the need for anyone to buy Solar City batteries is just a pipe dream. Leasing panels? Another flop business model.
Who in their right mind would buy a house with an existing lease to Solar City when you can just make the previous owner eat it and then get new, better panels installed and own them?
E-Cars and solar for the house are worthy ideas but Tesla and Solar City aren't the companies to do it. They have sucked untold millions out of the government to put up a facade of progress (all of it courtesy of you the taxpayer) and haven't innovated anything. All their patents are nothing more than rehashes of what they got from NASA and other government entities
All this solar this and that makes no difference, in the end the same utility companies that run energy now will run all solar production as well and the benefit to the consumer will be zilch.
Global warming? That is the least concern. Look around, the massive human migrations are doing more to damage the environment than any fumes coming from the tail pipe of cars. Entire populations are migrating, you think any of them care about global warming?
It's true when I was reading one of the latest articles on Elon Musk wanting to add solar house panels to his electic cars and create a full fancy package I thought his prices are too expensive and elitist. Who is going to pay these inflated prices? It just isn't practical. He also wanted to focus on the design of the roof panels making them pretty and attractive the same way the battery charger for the car is but I do not think that is enough. Maybe more people than I think have the money to indulge in his fancy equipment but I doubt it.
Tesla cars are revolutionary although they are still only for the rich. Time will tell if Tesla can produce a car suitable for the masses. I do not have a problem with any of that.
I do have a problem with Tesla and their strategy for batteries and renewable energy (wind and solar in particular). Musk made a big thing 18 months ago about the PowerWall battery. Here is the truth about it:
- After 18 months you still cannot buy a PowerWall in the US.
- It was advertised as costing $3k, but when it is sold, it will be through Solar City which requires you to spend another $3k for additional parts and for installation
- PowerWall is not made compatible with most solar installation. The standard bus voltage for solar panels is 48V (or 24V). The PowerWall has a bus that is 300V. It is not a drop-in component that can replace other batteries.
- PowerWall is not first to market. There are LiPo (Lithium Iron Phosphate) batteries currently being sold (which do operate at 48V). For instance, Iron Edison has one. They are drop-in replacements for traditional lead-acid batteries.
- The Lithium batteries which are used in a Tesla car are not compatible with the needs of home or commercial energy storage. The reason has to do with cycles, depth of discharge, and battery management. In particular, car batteries are very finicky and are prone to catch fire. Musk has been selling the whole PowerWall idea as being another use of his Tesla battery, but that is simply not the case. He finally admitted recently that his so-called Giga Factory will be 50% dedicated to PowerWall batteries and 50% to car batteries.
- Musk recently signed an agreement with LG Chem, who is Tesla's competitor for solar energy storage, to buy batteries from them. In other words, Tesla cannot deliver a battery suitable for PowerWall so now he goes to his competitor for it.
The whole battery thing is fast moving technology. There are new ideas coming out that are better than lithium. Musk is putting a lot of eggs in one basket and betting his business on lithium and his GiGa Factory.
Furthermore, the need for grid-level energy storage is also huge and there are lots of ways to achieve that without batteries. But again, Musk is betting that lithium batteries (his, in particular) will solve the grid-level storage problem. He is competing with some big companies (GE, Siemens, Hitachi, Samsung, Bosch....).
I think Musk should get Tesla figured out and stay out of the battery business. Tesla still has its challenges and does not need the distractions of all this other stuff.
You live in an abnormal area from a power cost standpoint and while your conclusions might be correct for the Pacific Northwest, they are just flat wrong for most of the rest of the country. PV has a simple payback in Washington DC of about 5 years. That's a huge return on investment.
Sunny...yes. Hot...no. Panels do best when they are colder.
Nobody uses solar power for heating.....that I have ever heard of. I've been solar for some time. Grid power is much cheaper. In many places, it is prohibitive to get grid power since one is essentially dealing with a quasi governmental monopoly.
You are mostly right....just a few quibbles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemlock140
From a financial perspective, solar does not pencil out even with subsidies in many areas. Here for example, with little sun, large trees shading roofs, and the inexpensive hydro power, and mild climate it just isn't practical. I do have several small solar installations that I use for such things as charging the riding mower battery and running a pond fountain when sunny, but the best areas for solar power are those with a sunny and hot climate where AC is used much of the year, or a cold winter climate that still gets sun and uses electricity for heating.
We COULD be enjoying safe and CHEAP nuke power, instead the largest default of public bonds in USA history... for which rate payers will fund to perpetuity.
Solar Thermal Collectors (just the common Hot Water type) collect heat and dump it into an 80 Gallon Water Heater.
From the Water Heater tank circulation lines go into and loop in the concrete floor.
The concrete floor gets warm and heats the whole greenhouse.
Holds the interior temps at 80F all winter without the Water Heater ever turning on.
Solar Power [Photo Voltaic] is completely different from Solar Thermal.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
