Global Warming Catch-All Thread (hybrid, hot water, garden, city)

[vec101]

Some global warming posts do belong in Green Living, others are stretching it, and others just plain belong in other forums.

This thread will serve as a deposit for most new global warming threads.

Please note that unless the GW post really deals with Green Living, it will be moved to this thread or another forum.

[Teak]

Okay, here is another reason why I can only agree on one thing regarding global warming: we just don't know.

Article 1: A glacier in Argentina is growing, despite global warming.
newsminer.com • Fairbanks, Alaska (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/L/LT_ARGENTINA_GLACIER?SITE=AKFAI&SECTION=HOME - broken link)

Article 2: Glaciers in Montana (Glacier Park) will probably disappear within 10 years.
newsminer.com • Montana glaciers may be gone within a decade

So, depending upon which side you want to take, there is an article for you!!

[bluepacific]

Originally Posted by Teak

Okay, here is another reason why I can only agree on one thing regarding global warming: we just don't know.

Article 1: A glacier in Argentina is growing, despite global warming.
newsminer.com • Fairbanks, Alaska (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/L/LT_ARGENTINA_GLACIER?SITE=AKFAI&SECTION=HOME - broken link)

Article 2: Glaciers in Montana (Glacier Park) will probably disappear within 10 years.
newsminer.com • Montana glaciers may be gone within a decade

So, depending upon which side you want to take, there is an article for you!!

The only reason the terminology "Global Warming" took off is because of specific weather phenomena located on our part of the globe. However there are drastic changes happening throughout our planet and it is a direct result of mankind's influence and failed custodialship of our Earth.

That Glacier advance is not unique to just South America. I have friends and family in Cape Town , South Africa and they say the winter weather lasts longer now and snow is more common than ever before in some higher mountain elevations. The same is true for friends and family I have in Perth, Brisbane, and Sidney , Australia where winters are not only longer but also colder. Many times they have had later freak winter snows in Sidney that is something uncommon from the past.

As you pointed, considering where you are there could be a differing point of view. But it is also noteworthy to see that the equatorial areas of the Earth are experiencing some of the most servere and distructive weather phenomena than ever before. The terminology should be more appropriately changed to "Global Ruin". If mankind as a whole, not just big companies as targeted by many environmental movements, but the entire human race has to get on board and change their personal habits or things will continue to spiral down hill. Unfortunately looking at past experience with humankind tells us they won't unless forced to.

Another another interesting note, this "Global Warming" in the Northern Hemisphere has had some interesting side effects in exposing what use to be extensive and massive temperate forests in the Arctic Regions. Here's a mention of it in one of my blogs on ancient forests of the north. What is interesting is that the melting of the glacial ice and the exposed ground permafrost has uncovered numerous tree stumps and logs in an area otherwise inhospitable environment to anything but moss and lichens. One of the main researcher's has been Hope Jahren who studies ancient climates and in this case what has been named the Oacene World Climate. The beatiful thing about the stumps and logs is that they are still real viable wood for study. In fact the wood still burns unlike fossilized wood you would find in areas like Arizona's Petrified Forest Presevre. Hence they are able to do real isotope studies of the woody celluose tissues left over. They area of discovery is Axel Heiberg Island which is one of the northern most islands beloging to the Canadian Achealopelago next to northern Greenland. This area is exactly 1,110 kilometers north of the Arctic Circle which itself is just north of Hudson Bay.

http://www.city-data.com/blogs/blog6...ent-world.html

Here's another interesting link of the stumps found where they grew. What they discovered is that the distruction was instantaneous and caused by massive flood waters all at once. The flood waters overwhelmed the trees, some of which have been found to be over three meters (little over ten feet) in diameter. The trunks were snapped off like those snapped at Mount St Helens during that pyroclastic flow which flattened everything in it's pathway. In this case the logs snapped off the trunks and were quickly buried in sediment. Many of these have been uncovered and have yielded information that the trees were as high as 80' to 120'. In the link below, take note of the valley with the tree stumps and the hills surrounding the lower plain. Notice the horizontal lines on all the hills. If you've ever been to a resevoir that has drought conditions and lowering water levels over a long period of time, then you've also seen the same horizonatal lines which were created by the wind blown water against the shoreline. Apparently this is the result of lowering flood waters from this area as well when the waters started to recede.

http://www.brandonu.ca/academic/environmental/images/Mummified%20tree%20stump%20of%20a%20dawn%20redwood .pdf (broken link)

Below is yet another interesting link by a Canadian researcher who has more photos of branches, leaves, twigs, and cones from the most dominant species of tree at that time, the Dawn Redwood (Metasequoia) which was at one time thought to be extinct but discivered in 1944 in China. They also found an area off Axel Heiberg a much smaller island called Ellesmere Island for which an actual beaver pond was discovered with cobble stones, logs and sticks with the distinctive beaver cuts. Animal fossils from these areas also revealed not only beaver, but also crocodile, bear, wolverine, badger, rabit and small deer and mostly northernly record of a horse.

http://www.brandonu.ca/academic/environmental/images/deep%20time%20northern%20studies.pdf (broken link)

What fasinates me is the structure of water itself during this time period. Hope Jahren's isotope studies revealed the wood celluose contained only Oxygen 16 and none of the Oxygen 16 and Oxygen 18 found in modern tree tissues. The puzzling part is that rain water originating over oceans contain Oxygen 18. But the presence of only Oxygen 16 suggests that the trees and surrounding flora did'nt get their water source from off the oceans but rather water from lakes, rivers and springs. Water that is influenced by the earth with it's oxygenation and energizing qualities, similiar to the water Viktor Schauberger found in springs from Pristine old growth forests in the 1920s and 1930s Austria.

The atmosphere was found to be different as well. It's average humidity was around 60% - 67%. The area of both Polar regions today is mostly like a cold desert as far as humidity. Very dry climate. It was found that the area never had snowfall or even a frost. It was a mild temperate region like Vancouver, Canada. The existance of Palm tress was also interesting. The humidity levels were said to reach as high as the middle trophosphere and higher, possibly to the stratosphere. This kept winter dormancy temperatures mild and also even frost free let alone and snow or even glaciers.

The other interesting thing is that the same conditions for forest plants and animal existance existed at the Antarctica at the same time as well. Tree trunks and logs have been found from certain receeding glaciers as well as islands off the coast. Most of these in the Southern regions were a deciduous type of tree.

The present global warming trend is not a natural phenomena, it is most certainly and strictly caused by mankind in general.

[vec101]

One thing I think everyonce can agree on - people are NOT going to agree as to whether GW exists and/or whether it is manmade. A lot of proof can be presented for all sides.

What bothers me the most is the govt using the IPCC model and report for the basis of economic policies. There is entirely too much controvery over it. Even many who worked on the report say that the conclusions derived from it are flawed, some factors were ignored, etc.

So now the govt is using the term "Climate Change" instead of Global Warming. But guess what, if you read the Cap & Trade bill, they still use the term Gloabl Warming in the bill.

[rlchurch]

Originally Posted by vec101

One thing I think everyonce can agree on - people are NOT going to agree as to whether GW exists and/or whether it is man made. A lot of proof can be presented for all sides.

Actually you couldn't be more wrong. There is no scientific controversy over the FACT that the earth has warmed. There's virtually no scientific differences over the assertion that anthropogenic sources are an important forcing functions. There some significant scientific uncertainty about the magnitude of anthropogenic global warming.

Let set a simple test -- One climate focused scientific professional organization that disputes the earth is warming. And please leave off the Republican minority reports; they aren't scientists. Leave off the the American Enterprise Institute; they aren't scientists. Leave off The Heartland's Institute and it's "lists" of "scientists" who dispute IPCC findings. A recognized scientific professional society who's members do research on climate is the test -- ONE will do it for me.

[vec101]

We can go round and round discussing that - oh wait, we already did - in posts a couple months ago.

[T-310]

Originally Posted by rlchurch

Actually you couldn't be more wrong. There is no scientific controversy over the FACT that the earth has warmed. There's virtually no scientific differences over the assertion that anthropogenic sources are an important forcing functions. There some significant scientific uncertainty about the magnitude of anthropogenic global warming.

Let set a simple test -- One climate focused scientific professional organization that disputes the earth is warming. And please leave off the Republican minority reports; they aren't scientists. Leave off the the American Enterprise Institute; they aren't scientists. Leave off The Heartland's Institute and it's "lists" of "scientists" who dispute IPCC findings. A recognized scientific professional society who's members do research on climate is the test -- ONE will do it for me.

Then you leave off al-Gore's assertions and the IPCC as we all know are politicians masquerading as scientists.

[Teak]

Originally Posted by bluepacific

Another another interesting note, this "Global Warming" in the Northern Hemisphere has had some interesting side effects in exposing what use to be extensive and massive temperate forests in the Arctic Regions. Here's a mention of it in one of my blogs on ancient forests of the north. What is interesting is that the melting of the glacial ice and the exposed ground permafrost has uncovered numerous tree stumps and logs in an area otherwise inhospitable environment to anything but moss and lichens.

The atmosphere was found to be different as well. It's average humidity was around 60% - 67%. .... The existance of Palm tress was also interesting. The humidity levels were said to reach as high as the middle trophosphere and higher, possibly to the stratosphere. This kept winter dormancy temperatures mild and also even frost free let alone and snow or even glaciers.

The other interesting thing is that the same conditions for forest plants and animal existance existed at the Antarctica at the same time as well. Tree trunks and logs have been found from certain receeding glaciers as well as islands off the coast. Most of these in the Southern regions were a deciduous type of tree.

The present global warming trend is not a natural phenomena, it is most certainly and strictly caused by mankind in general.

Thanks for the links and discussion bluepacific.

Certainly there is ample geological evidence for past periods of both a warmer climate and a colder climate than exists today. The warmer climate is evidenced by, as you say, the remains (fossils and coal/oil deposits) of tropical vegetation even in polar regions. The colder climate has for its evidence the glacial moraine deposits of the U.S. midwest (Wisconsin, Minnesota, the Dakotas), hanging valleys in mountain ranges, and etc.

Some scientists claim that the earth is still warming from a "little" ice age that occurred between 1400 and 1800. Some claim that this warming trend turned around in the year 1998 and that a slight cooling trend has begun since that time.

The difficulty is in determining how much of the warming trend (and now cooling trend) is a result of human activity, and how much is down to natural climate change. A lot of the evidence currently being presented for the warming trend (melting glaciers, melting permafrost, etc.) are phenomena that will react slowly and will be, in market terminology, lagging indicators. If you develop government policy towards reacting to lagging indicators, you may not react fast enough or you may be reacting to something that has already turned around. So again, we just don't know.

Side note: As to the atmosphere being different at some time in the past, I agree. I am still waiting for someone to explain to me how it was those pterodactyls flew when it has been shown that they could not fly in today's atmosphere (101.13 kPa of pressure). Supposedly the atmosphere back in pterodactyl days was even lower in pressure and, presumably, being built by repeated volcanic eruptions. If pterodactyls did fly, I suspect the atmosphere was higher in pressure (and more humid) than it is today.

[ferretkona]

Well, both will happen in global warming. The ocean's temp is changing and weather patterns are changing. Some areas will get cooler, some warmer.
Global warming is about the whole planet and the ice at the poles melting. Already most kelp beds are dying in the ocean since they do not thrive in warmer water.

I have no doubt we as a people are screwing up the planet. But volcano's are destroying the ozone layer, cattle emit methane which damages the ozone as well. Course there would be a lot less cattle without us raising them for meat.

[GreenGene]

Many thanks for the WEATHER update in Boston.

On a related but different topic (global warming), there's a new report out that will be quickly dismissed by climate change deniers:

Global Climate Change Impacts in the United States

The key findings for the Northeast (note: this is NOT a weather forecast):

• Extreme heat and declining air quality are likely to pose increasing problems for human health, especially in urban areas.
• Agricultural production, including dairy, fruit, and maple syrup, are likely to be adversely affected as favorable climates shift.
• Severe flooding due to sea-level rise and heavy downpours is likely to occur more frequently.
• The projected reduction in snow cover will adversely affect winter recreation and the industries that rely upon it.
• The center of lobster fisheries is projected to continue its northward shift and the cod fishery on Georges Bank is likely to be diminished.

For a simple, anyone-can-understand explanation of the difference between "weather" and "climate", see:

NASA - What's the Difference Between Weather and Climate?