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IMO, out of a snubnose (2 inch barrel), there is no advantage to using a modern JHP round. I will carry JHP's as a reload, though.
12-18" of penetration to vital organs is #1.
If I want reliable expansion & penetration, I carry a 9mm.
Early JHP ammo was notoriously unreliable from a short barreled revolver. Current high quality loads such as those that I mentioned give very reliable expansion.
If there is no advantage to using a modern JHP, why would you carry it as a reload?
Early JHP ammo was notoriously unreliable from a short barreled revolver. Current high quality loads such as those that I mentioned give very reliable expansion.
If there is no advantage to using a modern JHP, why would you carry it as a reload?
Perfect timing for this debate. Lucky Gunner just completed their .38 Special & .357 Magnum load testing. Using both 2 inch and 4 inch revolvers.
I see some JHP loads in that report that expanded and penetrated properly. I would certainly carry those loads in my 2" SP101.
But in an Airweight or in my case, a Scandium frame, I would not want more recoil than a Wadcutter. And the reasoning for a JHP round for a reload is ease of reloading a JHP under stress compared to a Wadcutter. The right angle on a Wadcutter is harder to reload from a speed strip under stress. A JHP round is rounded and funnels easier into the cylinder.
Doctor Gary Roberts and Doctor Martin Fackler both agree that a FULL Wadcutter is effective and still a viable option.
Dr. Fackler has written in Fackler ML: "The Full Wadcutter--An Extremely Effective Bullet Design", Wound Ballistics Review. 4(2):6-7, Fall 1999)
Quote:
"As a surgeon by profession, I am impressed by bullets with a cutting action (eg. Winchester Talon and Remington Golden Saber). Cutting is many times more efficient at disrupting tissue than the crushing mechanism by which ordinary bullets produce the hole through which they penetrate. The secret to the increased efficiency of the full wadcutter bullet is the cutting action of its sharp circumferential leading edge. Actually, cutting is simply very localized crush; by decreasing the area over which a given force is spread, we can greatly increase the magnitude to the amount of force delivered per unit are--which is a fancy way of saying that sharp knives cut a lot better than dull ones. As a result, the calculation of forces on tissue during penetration underestimate the true effectiveness of the wadcutter bullet relative to other shapes."
Dr. Gary Roberts states...
Quote:
"With few exceptions, the vast majority of .38 Sp JHP's fail to expand when fired from 2" barrels in the 4 layer denim test. Many of the lighter JHP's demonstrate overexpansion and insufficient penetration in bare gel testing. Also, the harsher recoil of the +P loads in lightweight J-frames tends to minimize practice efforts and decrease accuracy for many officers. The 158 gr +P LSWCHP offers adequate penetration, however in a 2" revolver the 158gr +P LSWCHP does not reliably expand. If it fails to expand, it will produce less wound trauma than a WC. Target wadcutters offer good penetration, cut tissue efficiently, and have relatively mild recoil. With wadcutters harder alloys and sharper leading edges are the way to go. Wadcutters perform exactly the same in both bare and 4 layer denim covered gel when fired from a 2" J-frame.
When faced with too little penetration, as is common with lightweight .38 Sp JHP loads or too much penetration like with the wadcutters, then go with penetration. Agencies around here have used the Winchester 148 gr standard pressure lead target wadcutter (X38SMRP), as well as the Federal (GM38A) version--both work."
I see some JHP loads in that report that expanded and penetrated properly. I would certainly carry those loads in my 2" SP101.
But in an Airweight or in my case, a Scandium frame, I would not want more recoil than a Wadcutter. And the reasoning for a JHP round for a reload is ease of reloading a JHP under stress compared to a Wadcutter. The right angle on a Wadcutter is harder to reload from a speed strip under stress. A JHP round is rounded and funnels easier into the cylinder.
Doctor Gary Roberts and Doctor Martin Fackler both agree that a FULL Wadcutter is effective and still a viable option.
Dr. Fackler has written in Fackler ML: "The Full Wadcutter--An Extremely Effective Bullet Design", Wound Ballistics Review. 4(2):6-7, Fall 1999)
That is why I have come to my conclusion that their is no advantage to a JHP, for me, from a Scandium J-frame.
I will certainly consider a hot JHP load from the lucky gunner report for my SP101, though.
Facklers statement was from 1999, and Cirillo was active as a police officer when, late '60's -70's? There was really only one "high performance" self defense load then, the SuperVel (which he used to good success in his first gunfight). Successful in that he won, but the ammo performance left something to be desired.
The point is that both are somewhat dated when it comes to sources for good information on current ammo choices.
That wadcutter ammo worked for Cirillo is reinforced in that he created his own line of specialty ammo, SafeStop - a modern plated wadcutter. Unfortunately, it was a commercial failure.
Oh, an important quote from Robert's article:
Quote:
Currently the Speer Gold Dot 135 gr +P JHP, Winchester 130 gr bonded +P JHP (RA38B), and
loads using the Barnes 110 gr all copper JHP (for ex. in the Corbon DPX loading) offer the most
reliable expansion we have seen from a .38 Sp 2” BUG; the Hornady 110 gr standard pressure
and +P Critical Defense loads also offer good performance out of 2" barrel revolvers.
Given that ammo like this is available, I can't see any reason to go back to 1970 and carry target wadcutters as self defense rounds.
For people who don't shoot much and are recoil sensitive, and/or for inside the house use, the .38 target wadcutter might offer one of the better choices, at least better than going on down to a .22 rim-fire, which is where these people would otherwise go I would think.
Most of us on here handload and shoot a lot, remember the "average Joe" and "average Jane" don't.
If you'd check out the time for repeat hits with a .38 snub (and plus ps) vs a glock or SA 9mm, you'd not carry the revolver. Even worse for the shorty 357's. They are nearly twice as slow for another hit.. Everyone misses and gets poor hits when under lethal stress, with no ear and eye protection, so being that much slower for another try is a really bad idea. Also, the P938's, do NOT "just work". Sig has had plenty of reliability and durability problems with the early ones. Check them out on Sig forums. I use the Kimber version, to get the ducktail frame tang, but I'm smith enough to fix pretty much any problem., too.
The 938 issues have been resolved via the main spring housing etc.. Good to go.
maybe, but you left out that part in your original comment, many older models are still around, so your blanket statement "they just work" is quite inaccurate
Stop it. If someone actually shoots their gun, and it has problems, then it would have been sent in after they called Sig CS. But, since most people dont shoot their guns as they are safe queens, then of course some wont. And if there are still some around that havent been sold at gun shops, then bad on them for not paying attention to gun issues and having it fixed prior to a sale..
Anyone that owns a gun for more than just looking at it, shoots it allot. When you have issues, you go through certain motions, to fix it. Then you change ammo. If nothing works, call the gun manufacturer, Sig. They have lifetime support for you.
I have a 3 sigs, and only one has had issues, and Sig took care of it. The 238 and 226 runs awesome.
I have other brands, and their CS is fantastic too.
generally, its cleaning, or ammo that causes issues..
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