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IKnow,
Hi.. when you say you're buying in a nice area, just blocks from Town Center, is it Thalia (?)
If so, my feeling about developing/expanding Town Center in to a larger 'functional' downtown (from a Thalia perspective), is they would be against it. A lot of the area surrounding TC area was content suburban neighborhoods for years. Town Center is a synthetic, inorganic downtown that was dropped on them. Historically a downtown grew from industry & ppl moved to large cities seeking financial opportunities. Then when those opportunities shrink/collapse the downtown collapses, leaving behind a crime-ridden shell, bad school system etc. Virginia Beach's population growth was in large part fueled by ppl escaping Norfolk's (school system) collapse in the 70s. Not sure why VB is determined to create a fake downtown, which could skip the prosperity part of the cycle (VB is already prosperous), but go straight to the part where Town Center decays & eventually destroys surrounding property values & turns P.A. school district undesirable (?)
VB already has a successful vision, to be a suburb. Why fix what isn't broken (?) Peace.
Cities all over the country are doing the same thing
Looks like the 21st century's motto is gentrification.
Cities all over the country are doing the same thing
Looks like the 21st century's motto is gentrification.
It actually makes a lot of sense and is decent stewardship. I’m not wholly against suburban development but where a city has the option to build a new strip mall over undeveloped land or repurpose land with a developed district it seems like the latter is the better option.
It actually makes a lot of sense and is decent stewardship. I’m not wholly against suburban development but where a city has the option to build a new strip mall over undeveloped land or repurpose land with a developed district it seems like the latter is the better option.
I think it depends.
In a low-crime area with a lot of opportunity, go for it!
It made sense at City Center in Virginia Beach.
I saw the mess that was created over in the Bay Area in and around Oakland and Walnut Creek. Developers would buy up large parts of underdeveloped sections, or high crime areas, and turn them into "city centers".
The surrounding neighborhoods typically see a spike in prices and you end up paying more to live in a high-crime area with a nice veneer.
In a low-crime area with a lot of opportunity, go for it!
It made sense at City Center in Virginia Beach.
I saw the mess that was created over in the Bay Area in and around Oakland and Walnut Creek. Developers would buy up large parts of underdeveloped sections, or high crime areas, and turn them into "city centers".
The surrounding neighborhoods typically see a spike in prices and you end up paying more to live in a high-crime area with a nice veneer.
It has worked in rough neighborhoods too. LoDo in Denver is a great success story. It was a rundown slum full of drugs and vagrants and then they built Coors Field in the middle of it. Now it is a vibrant neighborhood with shopping, restaurants, sports bars, coffee shops, and lots of foot traffic.
The concept can work to enhance TC as well. The new office tower described above is a good start because it brings additional jobs, which translate into additional daytime commerce. That could spawn additional business opening in the area. I really think a sports team would be a huge value add to the neighborhood but that’s a little more complicated given the cost of building a venue and the space required for such a venue. It’s still a good concept and with the right alignment of vision and resources could really add a lot of TC and VB as a whole.
It actually makes a lot of sense and is decent stewardship. I’m not wholly against suburban development but where a city has the option to build a new strip mall over undeveloped land or repurpose land with a developed district it seems like the latter is the better option.
To be clear, I don't think either of those options is necessary or, in most cases, even desirable.
I believe in preserving existing neighborhoods and communities, not in tearing them down for gentrified millennial-friendly quarters with trendy abbreviated names OR in "paving paradise to put up a parking lot" for boring generic suburban subdivisions and strip malls with national chain stores. I passionately oppose these forms of "development", and I am quite upset at this direction across this country when it comes to cities.
I only make this statement because I don't want my position to be misunderstood or worse yet misrepresented by a false "either-or". And because deep down I hope (and like to believe) that most people would agree with me and would be concerned at the idea of outsiders coming into a town to then say it needs a sports arena or some other "development".
To be clear, I don't think either of those options is necessary or, in most cases, even desirable.
I believe in preserving existing neighborhoods and communities, not in tearing them down for gentrified millennial-friendly quarters with trendy abbreviated names OR in "paving paradise to put up a parking lot" for boring generic suburban subdivisions and strip malls with national chain stores. I passionately oppose these forms of "development", and I am quite upset at this direction across this country when it comes to cities.
Interesting.
So in the case of Denver you’d have been in favor of preserving run-down buildings that served as havens for vagrants and rife with drug paraphenalia? It’s interesting you cite “paving paradise...” because the ideas I’m sharing in doing so explicitly because I’d like to avoid paving over paradise. And what I’m talking about has been done effectively in a lot of places. I’ve also seen the opposite take place: where a city opts to expand outward rather than look for ways to redevelop its interior. In this case you sometimes quite literally get paving paradise and putting up parking lots.
As for “generic subdivisions” I am not even sure where to go with that. What I’m describing is the exact opposite of that conceptually. VB is pretty suburban as it is so anything they do will always have some degree of generic to it. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t room for improvement. I cut through an area just west of TC that was zoned industrial. It was unsightly and, well, generic. You find those kind of places in every city in the country and can put it literally anywhere. If that can be bought out and incorporated into TC why is that a problem? If those areas can be converted into sporting venues and retail spaces with additional spaces for offices and residences why not place it where there is already development that is in decay instead of where there is no development at all. Cost? Definitely a legit consideration but likely trivial when the long term development and viability of the community is considered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steelnomad
I only make this statement because I don't want my position to be misunderstood or worse yet misrepresented by a false "either-or". And because deep down I hope (and like to believe) that most people would agree with me and would be concerned at the idea of outsiders coming into a town to then say it needs a sports arena or some other "development".
I do try to resist the false “either/or” arguments as well, but I don’t see where else you’re going with your statement. And ironically enough, you’re implying an “either/or” in your own post. I’m not talking about breaking up neighborhoods, I’m talking about ways the VB TC can expand a few blocks (the need not even be contiguous) to better tap into its potential and serve the community. I’m not suggesting they drop an 18,000 seat arena or soccer stadium right in the middle of Thalia or Aragon. I’m also not implying sports venues are the only way to go. I cite them because I’ve seen these venues be exactly what leads to revitalization of a neighborhood. But there are other ways to take the area to the next level. I don’t presume to have the best ideas, I am simply contending there is room to take something good and make it better. Especially in a city that already has enough suburban sprawl to go around.
As for this idea of outsiders...perhaps it stems from my job moving me from time to time and therefore not knowing what it’s like to be born and raised and live my whole life in the same area, but honestly it’s a bit provincial. Wherever I’ve gone I’ve met people who’ve lived their whole lives in a given area. I get living the area you’ve known as home your whole life. What I don’t get is believing what you’ve known as home your whole life is as good as it’ll ever be. Places benefit from outsiders and fresh ideas. The areas I’ve lived that put up barriers to outsiders suffered from civic inbreeding.
Another thought is that while I may be new to the area, the term “outsider” is misapplied. The day I close on my house I have skin in the game. Lifelong residents may not like it when newcomers show up with ideas they’ve seen work in other places but lifelong residency in the area doesn’t give them any more say than any other person who’s playing by the rules.
And ultimately everyone who doesn’t like what I’m talking about can and should relax. It’s just a discussion. I personally do not have the capital to implement the types of vision I am discussing. If a conversation on what can make the area better upsets you feel free to open a discussion on how perfect the area already is!
So in the case of Denver you’d have been in favor of preserving run-down buildings that served as havens for vagrants and rife with drug paraphenalia? It’s interesting you cite “paving paradise...” because the ideas I’m sharing in doing so explicitly because I’d like to avoid paving over paradise. And what I’m talking about has been done effectively in a lot of places. I’ve also seen the opposite take place: where a city opts to expand outward rather than look for ways to redevelop its interior. In this case you sometimes quite literally get paving paradise and putting up parking lots.
As for “generic subdivisions” I am not even sure where to go with that. What I’m describing is the exact opposite of that conceptually. VB is pretty suburban as it is so anything they do will always have some degree of generic to it. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t room for improvement. I cut through an area just west of TC that was zoned industrial. It was unsightly and, well, generic. You find those kind of places in every city in the country and can put it literally anywhere. If that can be bought out and incorporated into TC why is that a problem? If those areas can be converted into sporting venues and retail spaces with additional spaces for offices and residences why not place it where there is already development that is in decay instead of where there is no development at all. Cost? Definitely a legit consideration but likely trivial when the long term development and viability of the community is considered.
I do try to resist the false “either/or” arguments as well, but I don’t see where else you’re going with your statement. And ironically enough, you’re implying an “either/or” in your own post. I’m not talking about breaking up neighborhoods, I’m talking about ways the VB TC can expand a few blocks (the need not even be contiguous) to better tap into its potential and serve the community. I’m not suggesting they drop an 18,000 seat arena or soccer stadium right in the middle of Thalia or Aragon. I’m also not implying sports venues are the only way to go. I cite them because I’ve seen these venues be exactly what leads to revitalization of a neighborhood. But there are other ways to take the area to the next level. I don’t presume to have the best ideas, I am simply contending there is room to take something good and make it better. Especially in a city that already has enough suburban sprawl to go around.
As for this idea of outsiders...perhaps it stems from my job moving me from time to time and therefore not knowing what it’s like to be born and raised and live my whole life in the same area, but honestly it’s a bit provincial. Wherever I’ve gone I’ve met people who’ve lived their whole lives in a given area. I get living the area you’ve known as home your whole life. What I don’t get is believing what you’ve known as home your whole life is as good as it’ll ever be. Places benefit from outsiders and fresh ideas. The areas I’ve lived that put up barriers to outsiders suffered from civic inbreeding.
Another thought is that while I may be new to the area, the term “outsider” is misapplied. The day I close on my house I have skin in the game. Lifelong residents may not like it when newcomers show up with ideas they’ve seen work in other places but lifelong residency in the area doesn’t give them any more say than any other person who’s playing by the rules.
And ultimately everyone who doesn’t like what I’m talking about can and should relax. It’s just a discussion. I personally do not have the capital to implement the types of vision I am discussing. If a conversation on what can make the area better upsets you feel free to open a discussion on how perfect the area already is!
This area pretty much consists of majority "outsiders" including myself. Your fresh ideas are welcome, good luck in your new home.
Last edited by Poquoson7; 06-26-2018 at 02:05 AM..
I know they are trying to take steps to attract potential employers and residents, but development in HR is and always has been quite slow. If you’d like, you can go to Vbgov and check out their master plans for strategic growth in certain areas. It will take many years to accomplish, so I wouldn’t exactly wait with bated breath.
TC is a nice place to hang out, but I wouldn’t quite call it “downtown” in the traditional sense. Still, it’s nice that they are expanding.
The sports arena/home team has been on the table for years, but serious changes will need to occur before anything happens. In the meantime, there’s always a good old Tides/Admirals game in Norfolk.
You’re right that VB and HR in general has tremendous potential. It’s unfortunate that a lot of the leadership don’t seem to know what to do with it. I grew up in VB and still love it, but it’s frustrating as an adult to see that they are afraid to think outside the box. But that applies to many facets of life, so there you have it.
Hope the area is to your liking when you make the move!
I obviously live in Northern VA but I've always believed VA Beach has A TON of potential but I'm always shocked at how backwards some of the local politicians are down there. Refusing to cooperate with other jurisdictions in HR to help attract businesses at a critical time when the HR economy (or the entire Virginia economy for that matter) is struggling to grow/diversify or purposefully blocking development in other parts of the region that would ultimately be beneficial for VB? It's honestly so nonsensical. It's like they missed the part where in any metro area, the successes of one locality is intrinsically tied to the others.
As long as VA Beach, which is basically the Fairfax County of HR, continues to act in that manner, I think it's going to continue to stifle the entire region unfortunately.
You’ve latched onto that word “urban”.. I’m just trying to discus ways to improve one specific area of it.
IKnow,
Respectfully, urban renewal is your term/nebulous objective.. I'm quoting you. I have no latch in to that term.
You're not discussing any specific ways to improve VB. You're already convinced VB needs an unspecified urban renewal, you're just talking at people.
If you believe TC should & could easily expand, sell me on which surrounding neighborhoods will be cleared for the VB Tides stadium, and the additional Starbucks & artisan bagel shops. Does Thalia go, Aragona, Bonney Rd ? You haven't submitted a concrete idea for how expanding TC improves the city, or which direction the theoretical Town center expansion goes (?) Have u considered that TC expansion may harm/oversaturate already existing bars & restaurants at the Oceanfront, etc. Seems anyone who has a differing opinion (in this thread) is labelled 'backwards'. That's not open-minded discussion. Peace.
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