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though he had to be baptized shortly before sailing.
Then in my book he was no longer a jew. By the way, he was not only baptized he converted to Catholicism. Like St. Peter, he was thus Roman Catholic and should be remembered as such. It's not how you start the race, but how you finish it.
Simon Wiesenthal speculates in "Sails of Hope" that "after the landfall in America, the first words addressed to the natives were Hebrew."
How do you say, "My name is Luis de Torres. Prepare to die." in Hebrew?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29
Nothing came of the abortive Norse settements whereas the efforts of Columbus had world changing effect. That's why Columbus is famous and Ericson less so.
So if you come to the Americas to cut wood, repair boats, wander around, find grapes and trade a little milk (oops) with the native Americans you don't get a day, but if you come to take whatever the hell you want and destroy hundreds of cultures you do?
So if you come to the Americas to cut wood, repair boats, wander around, find grapes and trade a little milk (oops) with the native Americans you don't get a day, but if you come to take whatever the hell you want and destroy hundreds of cultures you do?
I guess you do.
What can I tell you; we're here because of Columbus and it's worked well for me. But if the Scandanavian-Americans want to have an Ericson day it's aces with me; no doubt some places do celebrate him.
Besides; had the Norsemen who came here the numbers and power needed they would've gladly made short shrift of the Indians, it's not like they were nice guys or something.
Note that the Spanish were a truely Imperial people on the Roman model and were willing to accept as Spaniards people who were "with" them including Italians, Jews, Moors, Irishmen, American Indians and Germans. Though by modern standards religious bigots they were open minded when it came to race and ethnicity.
"Empire-How Spain Became a World Power 1492-1763" by Hanry Kamen is a good book.
Then in my book he was no longer a jew. By the way, he was not only baptized he converted to Catholicism. Like St. Peter, he was thus Roman Catholic and should be remembered as such. It's not how you start the race, but how you finish it.
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They analyzed his brother's ADN and compared to Genoese, Catalan and Majorcan suitors. Genovese won, I think. Not Jew.
Although neither Italian explorer, John Cabot or Christopher Columbus, likely "discovered" America, I would cast my vote for John Cabot aka Giovanni Cabato. Both thought they were somewhere in Asia. Columbus never set foot on the mainland of South America until his third voyage in 1498. The previous year, in 1497, Cabot sailed the coast of North America and there is evidence from written records and artifacts that he landed in Newfoundland or Labador. However, there is no hint that he established contact with the native American population.
Unfortunately for the reputation of Columbus, his record with the Taino Indians and others is not one to be admired. To this day, remote Amazonian tribe's contact with explorer's and their contagion is called "meeting Columbus." That Columbus turned a blind eye to his follower's rapine, abuse and enslavement of native populations is one of historical record. Anthropologist Jack Weatherford has written extensively on Native American populations. His comments on Columbus follow:
What can I tell you; we're here because of Columbus and it's worked well for me. But if the Scandanavian-Americans want to have an Ericson day it's aces with me; no doubt some places do celebrate him.
I was just making a tart comment on the nature of hero-worship and history in our culture. Also, I was a Norwegian-American growing up in an Italian-American community, thus, 'Enough with Columbus, already!' :-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29
Besides; had the Norsemen who came here the numbers and power needed they would've gladly made short shrift of the Indians, it's not like they were nice guys or something.
And vice versa. In fact, it was the natives that likely ended the Norse settlement. The story was that trade went sour: first, the Norse started running out of the red cloth they were trading so started cutting it into thinner and thinner strips. The natives, of course, felt like they were getting ripped off. Then the Norse came up with a great idea, sell them milk! The natives were excited because they hadn't had milk since their last go at their mother's teat so they readily accepted the milk as a trade item. Of course native Americans are lactose intolerant so they got pretty ill and thought that the Norse had tried to poison them. The Vinland settlement was abandoned shortly thereafter not without some American arrows in Norse hides.
@Manolon - Despite your obvious hatred for everything Viking, what exactly were they "plundering" in their North American settlements? It seems like outside of raising livestock and farming they weren't doing much else and certainly weren't raiding anyone for S&G's.
Columbus is an interesting character to me. His myth has far exceeded the man himself. His "discovery" changed the world, but he himself had little to do with it. His calculations were all wrong regarding the size of the Earth and distance to the Far East. If America hadn't been in the way, Columbus would have just been another man who went looking and never came back. He died believing that he had reached Asia, never accepting that this was a new land. Also, the tales of his personal actions while governor of the "New World" show him to be cruel and tyrannical.
I'm not against honoring the moment, but I don't agree with honoring the man.
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Goat
There was no settlement, no discovery whatsoever, there are many hoaxes related with the American discovery.
And in case that the Ainse Les Meadows is a pirate shelter, it was just a place where a bunch of illiterate and heathenish pirates bumped after being lost, so they just bumped, took refuge and left for good without discovering a thing.
As to Colombus, many Black Legend were created against him by his enemies, and even if he was a monster, he's still the FORMAL DISCOVERER of America (not a hoax, not a pirate tale, no Mickey Mouse sagas of heatenish illiterate non-European barbarians from Hiperborea).
There was no settlement, no discovery whatsoever, there are many hoaxes related with the American discovery.
And in case that the Ainse Les Meadows is a pirate shelter, it was just a place where a bunch of illiterate and heathenish pirates bumped after being lost, so they just bumped, took refuge and left for good without discovering a thing.
As to Colombus, many Black Legend were created against him by his enemies, and even if he was a monster, he's still the FORMAL DISCOVERER of America (not a hoax, not a pirate tale, no Mickey Mouse sagas of heatenish illiterate non-European barbarians from Hiperborea).
Your belief that the L'Anse aux Meadows site is a hoax, is the only conspiracy theory here. The Norse landed in Newfoundland, they established a settlement and they explored, fished, hunted and traded extensively in the Saint Lawrence River/Gulf and New Brunswick area. This is considered legitimate and commonly accepted knowledge by virtually all archeologists and historians and has been a UNESCO World Heritage site since the late 70's.
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