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Old 06-12-2013, 08:37 AM
 
31,387 posts, read 37,070,009 times
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America: Choosing Security Over Liberty Since 1798 by Hayes Brown, "Foreign Policy."

The author summarizes the history of U.S. government suppression or outright violation of the rights of the people in the name of national security pointing to:

The Sedition Act of 1798
Lincoln's suppression of the writ of habeas corpus
The Espionage Act of 1917
The Sedition Act of 1918
First War Powers Act
Projects Shamrock and Mineret
The Counter Intelligence Program (COINTELPRO)


America: Choosing Security Over Liberty Since 1798 - By Hayes Brown | Foreign Policy
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:49 AM
 
3,910 posts, read 9,477,894 times
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What cracks me up is all of these people who are "outraged" suddenly upon hearing of the recent news. Anyone who didn't know this stuff has been going on for years must have been living under a rock or just totally oblivious. Today's government spying is no more prevalent or worse than the 50's, except that the technology is way better.

In every major metropolis, there are surveillance cameras everywhere, at almost every intersection, every bank, every shopping mall, etc. There are few places you can go that are off the grid. Even if you live in the middle of nowhere on a farm, the government can surveill you for space. This idea that this is some recent thing is comical. The government spying on us dates back to the 1930's with the formation of the FBI. Anyone ever heard of McCarthyism from the 50's? They just didn't have the technology back then, so they had ears on the ground.

The government (and private companies for that matter) has files for every American citizen. They know everything you've ever purchased using credit cards, every bank loan, every car you owned, every drivers license and voter registration, every address you ever lived it. Now with the advent of the internet, they know every website you ever visited, every facebook or twitter post you ever made, and every cell phone call or text you ever made.
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Old 06-12-2013, 11:38 AM
 
31,387 posts, read 37,070,009 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nolefan34 View Post
What cracks me up is all of these people who are "outraged" suddenly upon hearing of the recent news.
I don't know if it cracks me up, but there is a bit of irony in the whole situation. Consider the popularity of such fictional super nerd characters like Chloe O'Brian (24), Penelope Garcia *Criminal Minds) or Seymour Birkoff (Nikita) who with a few clicks of the keyboard can produce your last lunch receipt, locate you on a CCTV camera at the Mall, or transfer money in or out of your account to that Jack, Nikita or the members of BAU can ride in and save the day. But I digress...

Anyway, while I consider myself as one who lives on top of the rocks...the details of these WWII and 50's era programs is pretty interesting.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:02 PM
 
Location: NE Mississippi
25,584 posts, read 17,310,316 times
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I don't have any problem with this stuff. Let 'em count how many times I called Aunt Betty in Chicago. I don't care. They'll die of boredom.

But that guy named Achmed, who lives in a basement in Detroit and makes bombs? I want to know who's been calling him.
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Old 06-12-2013, 01:13 PM
 
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It's also ironic that many people in this day and age divulge so much information on social media like facebook & twitter (trashing their boss, cheating on their significant other, admitting to crimes, etc.). And don't forget about those who have loud cell phone conversations in public. To them, government surveillance should be a non-issue.
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Old 06-12-2013, 01:29 PM
 
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In defense, most of those acts detailed by the OP were temporary, and discontinued once the actions that caused them to be introduced (wars, etc) ended, or ceased to exist after a change of administration - that shows to some degree our system of checks and balances are in place. So I do not see any trend in that regard.

The difference and of concern on the data gathering front however is these aren't kept on index cards anymore, but electronically. And technology allows one to engage in data mining and drill-in at levels and to detail unheard of even ten years ago via connected systems of super computers. Also that these efforts were agreed upon by two different admistrations, and all 3 branches of government.
The threat of government abuse is not new, but the risk is even greater and more widespread, because it is so simple to abuse - by one poorly governed department (i.e. IRS) or one renegade employee - and it's real, as current events, and lapses in the governance of the current executive administration, indicate.
The citizens of the U.S. fortunetly has a history of not trusting it's government and questioning authority. Europe has lived with this loss of privacy for awhile yet (cameras at every corner, life history avilaible to police when they pull you over), and, strangely, seem to accept it. I just hope this current national debate will put proper controls in place over privacy.

Last edited by Dd714; 06-12-2013 at 02:21 PM..
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Old 06-12-2013, 06:45 PM
 
Location: The Triad
34,094 posts, read 83,020,975 times
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every age brings change. some are good.
Attached Thumbnails
The Short History of the U.S. Government Surveillance.-usps.jpg  
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Old 06-14-2013, 10:22 AM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
9,173 posts, read 13,261,443 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
America: Choosing Security Over Liberty Since 1798 by Hayes Brown, "Foreign Policy."

The author summarizes the history of U.S. government suppression or outright violation of the rights of the people in the name of national security pointing to:

The Sedition Act of 1798
Lincoln's suppression of the writ of habeas corpus
The Espionage Act of 1917
The Sedition Act of 1918
First War Powers Act
Projects Shamrock and Mineret
The Counter Intelligence Program (COINTELPRO)


America: Choosing Security Over Liberty Since 1798 - By Hayes Brown | Foreign Policy
It would be interesting if Hayes Brown also looked at other major countries during the time period. For instance - France: Choosing Security Over Liberty since 1798, Britain: Choosing Security Over Liberty since 1798, Germany......., Russia ....... ,Japan......, China....., Italy......, Spain......, Turkey......etc. you get the idea. Then if he compared all these countries, the United States may actually look pretty good.

Btw, right off the bat the first four items you mentioned happened during war time (example 1798 Sedition Act during the Quasi-War with France). In these cases, the United States largely disarmed its navy or army when the war was over. Disarming your army does not sound like a country that is choosing security over liberty.
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Old 06-14-2013, 10:47 AM
 
14,780 posts, read 43,711,708 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
It would be interesting if Hayes Brown also looked at other major countries during the time period. For instance - France: Choosing Security Over Liberty since 1798, Britain: Choosing Security Over Liberty since 1798, Germany......., Russia ....... ,Japan......, China....., Italy......, Spain......, Turkey......etc. you get the idea. Then if he compared all these countries, the United States may actually look pretty good.

Btw, right off the bat the first four items you mentioned happened during war time (example 1798 Sedition Act during the Quasi-War with France). In these cases, the United States largely disarmed its navy or army when the war was over. Disarming your army does not sound like a country that is choosing security over liberty.
So, our self-evident truths and inalienable rights only apply during peace time? The point being that the government from the time of the founders on has found occasion to blatantly violate the civil rights of Americans in the interest of national security against both real and perceived threats.
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Old 06-14-2013, 11:27 AM
 
Location: NE Mississippi
25,584 posts, read 17,310,316 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
So, our self-evident truths and inalienable rights only apply during peace time? The point being that the government from the time of the founders on has found occasion to blatantly violate the civil rights of Americans in the interest of national security against both real and perceived threats.
The terms 'real' and 'perceived' are ringers, and hard to pin down. A few years ago the war against terror was referred to as the so-called war against terror by certain parties. Those days are gone, but the term 'war against terror' is almost never used. It was kind of a hokey term, anyway, but I can't think of a good replacement. You know, sounds like 'war against poverty'; 'war against drugs'; just doesn't sound like an event where people get killed, which is what it is.

Lives are at stake in this counter-terrorism effort that will never end. And terrorists will hide behind our right to privacy laws if we let them. This sort of thing could never have been envisioned by the men who wrote the 'self evident' phrase.
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