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What else is often forgotten is the overthrow of 4 German supporting states In Jan. 1941 there were 4 German allies ( not puppet states) Italy, Yugoslavia, Hungary, and Bulgaria. By Sept. 1944 Germany was alone.
Yugoslavia had its coup in April, 1941 prompting a German invasion which proved to be very costly as an occupied state. ( Yugoslav front) Italy surrendered while the Eastern front momemtum was not decieded.
The Russians did commit 1.8 million troops, but how much of a heavy lift it was is questionable since the Kwangtung Army basically either gave up, committed suicide, or fled to South Korea, thus why the soviets had relatively few casualties and took hundreds of thousands of POWs. It did convince the hardliners to surrender, but the they were all but defeated by the time the Soviets showed up. The main thing of significance is that it created a base in Northeast Asia from which Chinese and Korean Communists could organize. In terms of contributing to the overall defeat of Japan the Soviet contribution was well behind the US, China, and the UK.
One of the pows captured by the Soviet Red Army was Chinas last Emperor of the Qing Dynasty Puey Yi who was also the puppet ruler of the Japanese backed Manchukuo.
What else is often forgotten is the overthrow of 4 German supporting states In Jan. 1941 there were 4 German allies ( not puppet states) Italy, Yugoslavia, Hungary, and Bulgaria. By Sept. 1944 Germany was alone.
Yugoslavia had its coup in April, 1941 prompting a German invasion which proved to be very costly as an occupied state. ( Yugoslav front) Italy surrendered while the Eastern front momemtum was not decieded.
Italy surrendered in September 1943, around two weeks after the conclusion of the Soviet Kursk counter-offensive and nearly two months after the German offensive at Kursk (Operation Zitadelle) was destroyed. That is the battle that decided the Eastern Front and the course of the war in Europe. If you don't believe me, this is what Guderian had to say...
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With the failure of Zitadellewe have suffered a decisive defeat. The armoured formations, reformed and re-equipped with so much effort, had lost heavily in both men and equipment and would now be unemployable for a long time to come. It was problematical whether they could be rehabilitated in time to defend the Eastern Front... Needless to say the Russians exploited their victory to the full. There were to be no more periods of quiet on the Eastern Front. From now on, the enemy was in undisputed possession of the initiative.
Italy surrendered in September 1943, around two weeks after the conclusion of the Soviet Kursk counter-offensive and nearly two months after the German offensive at Kursk (Operation Zitadelle) was destroyed. That is the battle that decided the Eastern Front and the course of the war in Europe. If you don't believe me, this is what Guderian had to say...
Kursk had a loss of 550,000 Axis soldiers, the Surrender of Italy had a effect of 2.5 million Axis soldiers leaving the battle, with more than 100,000 switching sides. (net 2.6 million)
Yugoslavia's coup caused 300,000 troops to switch sides to the allies (net 600,000)
So those two had, in effect, robbed the Axis of 3,200,000 troops, more than any battle in either theatre.
What else is often forgotten is the overthrow of 4*German*supporting states In Jan. 1941 there were 4 German allies ( not puppet states) Italy, Yugoslavia, Hungary, and Bulgaria. By Sept. 1944 Germany was alone. Yugoslavia had its coup in April, 1941 prompting a German*invasion*which proved to be very costly as an occupied state. ( Yugoslav front) Italy surrendered*while*the Eastern front momemtum was not decieded.
In January 1941, there were only three formal members of the Axis; Italy, Hungary, and Romania. Bulgaria did not join the Axis until March 1, 1941. Yugoslavia, while nominally pro-German, cannot be said to have been an ally in any real sense of the word. Though Yugoslavia joined the Axis on March 25, 1941, the government of Prince Paul, which had signed the agreement to that affect, was overthrown on the 27th, so the “alliance†lasted all of two days.
And while it is true that Italy withdrawing from the war in September 1943 created a situation where the Germans had to find additional manpower to cover territory in Yugoslavia and Greece previously occupied by the Italians, it was by no means such a drain on resources that it impacted the German war effort in a major way. It could, however, be argued that the loss of Romania as an ally in August 1944 was a much bigger blow to the Germans. Not only were the Germans completely cut off from the Romanian oil that they so desperately needed, but up to that point, Romania had contributed more troops to the Eastern Front (some 800,000 men) than all the other Axis powers (excluding Germany itself, of course) combined.
The fact of the matter is, the Balkans, much like the Mediterranean, was nothing more than a sideshow for the Germans compared to the war effort elsewhere.
In January 1941, there were only three formal members of the Axis; Italy, Hungary, and Romania. Bulgaria did not join the Axis until March 1, 1941. Yugoslavia, while nominally pro-German, cannot be said to have been an ally in any real sense of the word. Though Yugoslavia joined the Axis on March 25, 1941, the government of Prince Paul, which had signed the agreement to that affect, was overthrown on the 27th, so the “alliance†lasted all of two days.
And while it is true that Italy withdrawing from the war in September 1943 created a situation where the Germans had to find additional manpower to cover territory in Yugoslavia and Greece previously occupied by the Italians, it was by no means such a drain on resources that it impacted the German war effort in a major way. It could, however, be argued that the loss of Romania as an ally in August 1944 was a much bigger blow to the Germans. Not only were the Germans completely cut off from the Romanian oil that they so desperately needed, but up to that point, Romania had contributed more troops to the Eastern Front (some 800,000 men) than all the other Axis powers (excluding Germany itself, of course) combined.
The fact of the matter is, the Balkans, much like the Mediterranean, was nothing more than a sideshow for the Germans compared to the war effort elsewhere.
Italy has 500,000 sldiers on the Eastern front, and about 2.5 million overall, the overthrow of the Musollini Government caue a loss of 2.5. Million axis troops. More than Kursk, Moscow, and Stalingrad Combined. Yugoslavia's government was overthrown which causes A 600,000 soldier swing in favor of the Allies ( Larger than Kursk) and it is now know the British played a large role in it.
Italy has 500,000 sldiers on the Eastern front, and about 2.5 million overall, the overthrow of the Musollini Government caue a loss of 2.5. Million axis troops. More than Kursk, Moscow, and Stalingrad Combined. Yugoslavia's government was overthrown which causes A 600,000 soldier swing in favor of the Allies ( Larger than Kursk) and it is now know the British played a large role in it.
Italian troop strength on the Eastern Front never exceeded 250,000 men, so I have no idea where you get your 500,000 figure. While the peak strength of the Italian Army did reach roughly 2.5 million, that is the total number of men that served under arms from 1940 to 1943, not how many men Italy had in the field in 1943 when Mussolini was deposed. It also does not take into account the number of men killed in action or taken prisoner during that same time period (1940-43) so it is completely inaccurate to say that the Axis suffered a net loss of 2.5 million troops due to Italy withdrawing from the war in 1943. Secondly, it ignores the fact that some 200,000 Italians continued to fight alongside the Germans up until the war ended in May 1945.
With respect to Yugoslavia, I do not understand how you arrive at 600,000 soldiers going over to the Allies as a result of their government being overthrown. Overthrown when, prior to the German invasion in 1941? If so, that is of no particular relevance considering the Yugoslavs never engaged the Axis militarily before the Germans invaded. If you are referring to partisan activity in the wake of the German occupation, barely 80,000 Yugoslavs continued the fight against the Axis in 1941. By 1943 when Italy exited the war, the partisans numbered just over 300,000 and were opposed by a German force totaling 700,000. The partisan movement as a whole didn't reach a total of over 600,000 until the end of 1944, and still faced the same number of German troops who in turn were supported by the pro-Axis Croatian Army which totaled approximately 200,000 men.
The bottom line is, the case cannot be made that the Balkans or even Italy's withdrawal from the fight were such a serious drain on German manpower and resources that it had a major negative impact on Germany's ability to wage war on other fronts. And no matter what troop numbers you throw out there, accurate or otherwise, they won't change that simple fact.
Italian troop strength on the Eastern Front never exceeded 250,000 men, so I have no idea where you get your 500,000 figure. While the peak strength of the Italian Army did reach roughly 2.5 million, that is the total number of men that served under arms from 1940 to 1943, not how many men Italy had in the field in 1943 when Mussolini was deposed. It also does not take into account the number of men killed in action or taken prisoner during that same time period (1940-43) so it is completely inaccurate to say that the Axis suffered a net loss of 2.5 million troops due to Italy withdrawing from the war in 1943. Secondly, it ignores the fact that some 200,000 Italians continued to fight alongside the Germans up until the war ended in May 1945.
With respect to Yugoslavia, I do not understand how you arrive at 600,000 soldiers going over to the Allies as a result of their government being overthrown. Overthrown when, prior to the German invasion in 1941? If so, that is of no particular relevance considering the Yugoslavs never engaged the Axis militarily before the Germans invaded. If you are referring to partisan activity in the wake of the German occupation, barely 80,000 Yugoslavs continued the fight against the Axis in 1941. By 1943 when Italy exited the war, the partisans numbered just over 300,000 and were opposed by a German force totaling 700,000. The partisan movement as a whole didn't reach a total of over 600,000 until the end of 1944, and still faced the same number of German troops who in turn were supported by the pro-Axis Croatian Army which totaled approximately 200,000 men.
The bottom line is, the case cannot be made that the Balkans or even Italy's withdrawal from the fight were such a serious drain on German manpower and resources that it had a major negative impact on Germany's ability to wage war on other fronts. And no matter what troop numbers you throw out there, accurate or otherwise, they won't change that simple fact.
i got the yugoslav number from the yugoslav army numbers -300,000 from the Axis side and + 300,000 to the allies. Before 1943 italy was basically occupying all of Yugoslavia, Albania, and Greece As well as fighting inItaly and Russia. afterthe Italian surrender there was a large number of Italian troops fighting for the allies as well.the Italian army peaked at nearly 4,000,000 but was reduced to about 2,500,000 by caulsilties and desertions. The italian surrender lead to German troops to be pulled away from the East and into the Baklands and Italy itself. As well as pick up any slack from the Loss of Italians on the Eastern front.
Yugoslavian + Italian manpower losses is over 3,000,000 more than any battle ( or any 2 battles) in the war.
i got the yugoslav number from the yugoslav army numbers -300,000 from the Axis side and + 300,000 to the allies.
When Germany invaded Yugoslavia in 1941, the Royal Yugoslav Army totaled 1,200,000. After Yugoslavia surrendered, the army essentially ceased to exist. None of these troops went to the Axis side and none went to the Allied side, unless you count the 80,000 men that formed the first partisan bands. I will admit I'm not very good at math, but there is no equation I can come up with that adds up to 600,000 Yugoslav troops going anywhere.
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Originally Posted by btownboss4
Before 1943 italy was basically occupying all of Yugoslavia, Albania, and Greece As well as fighting inItaly and Russia.
Italy did not occupy all of Yugoslavia. The country was carved up into separate zones which were occupied by Germany, Italy, Hungary, and Bulgaria. Croatia became an Axis puppet state, which in turn incorporated Bosnia-Herzegovina into its territory. Albania had been occupied by Italy since 1939, and given its size, really didn't require much by way of troops to hold on to it. Greece was occupied by Germany, Italy, and Bulgaria. Before the Italians were even out of the war, the Bulgarian zone of occupation was expanded, and the rest of Greece was occupied by German troops after Italy withdrew. After Romania left the Axis and joined the Allies in fall of 1944, Germany abandoned Greece, Albania, Serbia, and Bosnia. The only place German troops remained on Yugoslavian territory was in the northwest, where they and their Croat allies continued to hold out until April 1945 when they finally attempted to withdraw into Austria. Though Italy leaving the war in 1943 did require the Germans to expand their presence in territory once occupied by Italy, the assistance of the Bulgarians as well as the Croatians made that job fairly easy. With respect to Greece, there was a collaborationist government in place and though small, the Germans did receive help from Greek "Security Battalions" in battling against partisans there. So again, none of this represented a serious drag on Germany's ability to wage war elsewhere.
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Originally Posted by btownboss4
The Italian army peaked at nearly 4,000,000 but was reduced to about 2,500,000 by caulsilties and desertions.
Wrong. The Italian Army's peak strength never exceeded 2.5 million. That number reflects actual battle ready troop formations available for use in the field. Anything in excess of that is simply "paper strength" or the number of men the army said it could potentially deploy in combat provided they could be fully trained and equipped. Since that never happened, the 4 million number is mere wishful thinking, not reality.
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Originally Posted by btownboss4
The italian surrender lead to German troops to be pulled away from the East and into the Baklands and Italy itself. As well as pick up any slack from the Loss of Italians on the Eastern front.
Yugoslavian + Italian manpower losses is over 3,000,000 more than any battle ( or any 2 battles) in the war.
Wrong again. German troops that were sent to cover the gap in the Balkans left by the exit of the Italians were not drawn from the Eastern Front. They were formations made up of primarily middle aged German or ethnic German men who were past the age of service for front line combat. They were supplemented by SS police battalions which were trained specifically to provide security and participate in anti-partisan operations in German occupied territories. In many, but not all cases, these men were either recruited locally or drawn from such places like the Ukraine, Slovakia, and even Poland. Since neither of these forces were of any real value in the fight against the Russians, they cannot be factored into any manpower shortfall on the Eastern Front.
Now let's talk about the Axis forces on the Eastern Front, specifically the Italians, Romanians, and Hungarians at the beginning of the Battle of Stalingrad. The Italian 8th Army had 250,000 troops, the Romanian 3rd and 4th Armies combined had 228,072, and the Hungarian 2nd Army had 209,000. That totals 687,072 men. After the German 6th Army was encircled in Stalingrad and the Russians launched "Operation Little Saturn" which was aimed at primarily the Italians, Romanians, and Hungarians, when it was all said and done, each of those forces was reduced by half primarily through casualties and for all intents and purposes, ceased to exist as combat formations. The Germans lost roughly 250,000 just on their own. When you combine all Axis force losses, they add up to 656,854 men gone, never to fight again. That is the only number that represented a serious blow to German war making ability at that juncture of the war and had a lingering affect that, to my mind outweighs much of what happened after that, including Italy throwing in the towel.
So forget about Greece and the Balkans and your bogus 3 million men lost to the Axis war effort. The Eastern Front was the most critical theater of operations for the Germans, it's where the war was decided, and even the most casual of history students knows this. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?
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