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Let's be honest, in this situation, we are really talking about the ability of the USSR to defeat Germany. The UK would have never been more than a periphereal player on the continent without the US. Most likely being limited to engaging the Italians.
Nonsense. British had an empire, the largest ever, and able to drop into its massive pool of resources and men.
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Your analysis of the reasons for Japans are actions are flat out wrong. The Japanese were not watching and waiting to see what happened at the gates of Moscow like you imply. Japan had long been on a course towards war with the US and UK.
Japan did not want to face alone the USA and the British empire. the worst case scenario. And that is what happened. The Germans attempted to get the Japanese to attack the British in the Far East to divert the British away from Europe. The UK was amassing a large air fleet and also had the world's largest navy. They would sit idly by for long. The reason Germany attacked the USSR was to get their resources to fight the coming air war with the British. The Japanese repeatedly refused to declare war. Only when they thought the USSR was about to fall they joined in. The USSR kept 40 divisions opposite the Japanese Kwantung army all though WW2. With a superior armour to the Japanese.
Japan received assurances from Germany in the Spring of 1941. that they would declare war on the USA. Japan, economically could not sustain war of any length of time against any major power by itself, either the UK or the USA. Especially a war strung over a vast front. They imported most raw materials with their industry primarily artisan based, with little mass production. If going it alone, what the hell attacking the USA and British Empire was to achieve with no back up occupation force at Pearl Harbor defies belief. The Pearl Harbor attack was to fend off the US navy while they gain as much resource rich territory as possible in the south while the USSR threat is moved away from their north in China by the Germans. To Japan the key was the defeat of the USSR, which by Oct/Nov 1941 they thought was a foregone conclusion.
Say Germany did not declare war on the USA, but eliminated the USSR. The Japanese, to their eyes, would still be in a "better" position but not a good one, releasing men in China to move south - all through WW2 the Soviets had approx 40 divisions (most armoured) in Siberia and the Soviet Far East facing the Japanese. Without Germany fighting the USSR anticipating a quick German win, the Japanese would never had attacked the USA and the British Empire. It was madness to do so unilaterally and would entail certain defeat - even the Japanese knew that.
The Japanese were to eliminate the US Pacific fleet. The US Atlantic fleet would be occupied by the German U-Boats. The carriers got away at Pearl Harbor. If the carriers were sunk, they would not have been on the defensive by June 1942, giving them far more breathing space and lots more with the anticipated defeat of the USSR within months by the Germans. If the US carriers were sunk along with the US Pacific fleet, and the USSR defeated by summer 1942 by the Germans, Japan would be in very strong position.
The Japanese gained far more territory than they gambled on. They were one day away in Singapore from surrendering, but the British beat them to the white flag. They were expecting more protracted battles in Malaya/Burma and even maybe in the Philippines.
Using some common sense tells you the Japanese were not banking on being alone fighting the world's two largest economic powers. They were expecting at least the USSR to be neutralised or eliminated. And then some military aid from the Germans would be nice if it came. The Germans then would engage the British diverting them away from fighting the Japanese in Burma. Getting rid of the British and the Soviets was a major prize for Japan, and Germany could do the latter and both the former. So was the notion.
Wages of Destruction in quotes:
The tripartite pact was signed in Sept 1940. If one is attacked the other comes to their aid.
"The real nightmare of German strategy was the possibility that Japan might come to terms with the United States, leaving Germany to fight Britain and America alone. To forestall this possibility, Hitler had offered to declare war on the United States in conjunction with Japan already in the Spring of 1941."
Germany had offered to declare war on the US before the June 1941 attack on the USSR.
"But the Japanese had refused to commit themselves and instead entered into a last round of negotiations with the USA."
"It was not until October and the fall of the Konoe government that Berlin could feel sure that the Japanese-USA talks were going nowhere."
"When in November 1941 Tokyo began to signal that Japan was about to commit itself against the West, it was the cause of relief, bordering on euphoria in Berlin. Finally Hitler and Ribbentrop had the chance to complete the global strategic alliance they had been hoping for since 1938. And they did not hesitate."
The Germans immediately started to revise the Tripartite pact, knowing of the Japanese commitment to war, at the German's insistence.
"Without prior knowledge of the Japanese timetable for a surprise attack on Pearl Harbor, Hitler pledged himself to following Japan in a declaration of war on the United States."
7 Dec 1941. Japanese attack the USA at Pearl Harbor and British territories in Malaya and Hong Kong.
The amended Tripartite pact was signed by all, between the 7 Dec 1941, the attacks on the USA and British Empire, and Germany declaring war on the USA on 11 Dec 1941.
11 Dec 1941 Germany declares war on the USA.
Wages of Destruction is clear that the Germans were informed by the Japanese in November 1941 that they were to declare war. The attacks on the US and British Empire was no surprise to Hitler.
Wages of Destruction also states that Germany was repeatedly attempting to get Japan to declare war on the US and UK. The Japanese knew exactly what the Germans wanted and what they would do. It all fits.
As it turned out:
The USSR was not defeated and maintained a large army opposite the Japanese - the Japanese had already been mauled by the USSR in Manchuria in 1939.
Japan was facing the worst case scenario, the scenario it feared - fighting alone against the UK and USA, the world's two largest economic superpowers.
This was not in the forecasting, as it was obvious in late 1941 the USSR would be defeated after being mauled so badly by the German army - the army that also defeated militarily superior France within weeks.
In Spring 1941, the Germans feared fighting the USA & UK together - a worst case scenario for them. They were desperately worse off, fighting the UK, USA and the USSR.
The week in which the Japanese attacked the USA and British Empire, the Soviets counter attacked at Moscow with a battering ram of superior T-34 tanks pushing the Germans back taking 30,000 prisoners, so ending any chance of Germany defeating the USSR in one swoop. A protracted war against the USSR would ensue.
If the Soviet counter attack had been one month earlier the Japanese would not have attacked the US & UK - and most probably signed a pact with the USA which was in ongoing talks virtually to the Pearl Harbor attack.
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The Japanese embarrassed the RN and RAF March 31st to April 10th 1942 in the Indian Ocean. Had they had more troop and transport strength for an actual invasion, they probably would have taken Ceylon and denied the Indian Ocean to the British.
If the Japanese had these mythical troops and transports they would have used them to occupy the Hawaiian islands. The Japanese had no intention of occupying land in the Indian Ocean at that point, so far from supply and Japan.
Originally Posted by John-UK BTW, more Japanese troops were put out of action by the British and Soviets than the US. Hollywood never told you that did it?
No, and neither did anyone else, except perhaps, for one revisionist Anglophile that still insists that Britannia Rules The Waves. Sorry Old Boy, but the Pacific War was pretty much a Yankee show. Not many UK ships at Midway, or Tommies on Guadacanal and Iwo Jima.
FACT....More Japanese troops were put out of action by the British and Soviets than the US. The British Pacific fleet was off Formosa and Japan and the Australians (British Commonwealth) were deep into the Pacific war. British forces were amassing for Operation Olympic - the invasion of Japan. Maybe you forgot. Fighting Japan was a back-burner operation to the main one.
What you seem to lose sight of is that every country, including Britain, acts in its self interest. The USA--separated from Europe by the Atlantic Ocean-- was far less threatened than France and Britain were by Nazi Germany.
The UK was never threatened by any serious invasion by Germany.
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Also, lets not forget the assistance the USA gave Britain after the war ended. The USA gave Britain very low interest rates in repaying war loans.
The USA ripped the UK off big time during WW2. The USA made a profit on WW2.
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I wonder what would have been Britain's response if it had been left alone while America had been attacked by some foreign power? Would your country have done much for us?
The British were never really in a position to punch through in Burma until after the US had dealt massive blows to the Japanese across the Pacific.
Pretty well unrelated. The battle at Imphal in early 1944 was the greatest defeat to that date in Japanese history with 60,000 dead, and 100,000 further casualties. The British had 12,500 casualties, including 2,269 killed.
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The PTO included the Burma Theater which was the only continuous land battle in the entire Pacific War.
Much of the British denial of America saving them is a deep, left over resentment of the Colonies breaking away as well as the Beatles liking the States better than home.
Joke they tell about Americans in England: If there'd been a United States at the time of Jesus Christ, Americans would've convinced themselves by now that the Virgin Mary was an American.
Let's not get too full of ourselves. The feeling in England (I used to live there) is that we left them in the lurch for three years before joining in the war. For them, the war lasted six years (Sept 1, 1939 to Sept 2, 1945). For us, it lasted 3.8 years (Dec. 7, 1941 to Sept 2, 1945). Moreover, London was the first major city in history to be bombed and attacked with missiles. They suffered much more than we did.
Much of the British denial of America saving them is a deep, left over resentment of the Colonies breaking away
The British denial is because the USA did not save them at all. The denial is from the US who failed to see the massive contribution the British gave in WW2. The British were key in the defeat of Hitler.
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as well as the Beatles liking the States better than home.
Paul McCartney lives about 3 minutes walk from me. I see him in the streets occasionally. George Harrison lived in Henley and John Lennon lived in the USA because of the custody battle with his wife over her son. Ringo lives in Surrey.
Joke they tell about Americans in England: If there'd been a United States at the time of Jesus Christ, Americans would've convinced themselves by now that the Virgin Mary was an American.
I find it funny that aliens only ever manage to land in the USA and destroy American cities. UFOs are nearly always over the USA and when seen in England near an American installation. Yerrr
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Let's not get too full of ourselves. The feeling in England (I used to live there) is that we left them in the lurch for three years before joining in the war. For them, the war lasted six years (Sept 1, 1939 to Sept 2, 1945). For us, it lasted 3.8 years (Dec. 7, 1941 to Sept 2, 1945). Moreover, London was the first major city in history to be bombed and attacked with missiles. They suffered much more than we did.
The British fought for seven years. The British continued fighting after the Japanese surrender, fighting the Viet Minh in Viet Nam from 1945 to 1946 taking control of all the country, then handing it to France. British forces continued to fight in Greece and then the problems with the Jews in Palestine. Those conflicts were direct results of WW2.
The feeling in Britain is that the USA state they won the war and we would have been speaking German without them. It is strange that in Germany's most powerful period they could not take the UK. If they could they would have.
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