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Not all but many (try reading through this threasd for examples) or even just read the threads title again. 'Why do Brits deny US bailed them out in WW2' is simply disrespectful to the millions of Britons who fought and suffered in the fight against Nazism, if anything it was the Russians that 'bailed out' the West, it was the Russians that suffered the most. I think Britons are grateful to ALL its Allies for the invaluable help that ALL the Allies put in to fighting an evil regime, without Briton there would have been no DDay, without Russia there would have been no DDay, without the French resistance there would have been no DDay and yes without the Americans there would have been no DDay, may I suggest that (some) Americans need to try a little humility before they turn the respect people have for their veterans into scorn.
I am also an American that agrees the thread title shows a bit of arrogance. But on those rare occasions when the subject of WW2 is mentioned in passing or at gatherings, it's been my experience at least, that most Americans believe the US, Britain and Russia where ALL key in defeating the Germans. Certainly not the US as the big 'bail out' savior. The US also had it's hands full with fighting the Japanese. Our resources where strained to the point of material rationing at home.
Superb! This post is definitely a "finest hour" here on city-data. 100 rep points to you !!!!!
This post you think was wonderful was quite contemptuous towards Britain and way out. My previous post sums it it well. I added to it here. Again, the Germans had lost the war before the USA entered WW2.
Germany had lost the war before it invaded the Soviet union. Its success up to 1941 had been wild gambles that paid off. The British empire alone had the capability of developing a huge military force. Many history books have it that Britain and France failed to rearm in time to fight Hitler effectively. By 1940 the French had armies that were superior in both numbers and equipment and the small British land force, the BEF (only 9% of all allied forces in France), was the first ever fully motorised army. The British and French navies were vastly superior to Germany's and their air forces at least equal. When France fell, although Britain lost it small land force in France the RAF was equivalent to the Germans in numbers and quality defeating the Luftwaffe over Dunkirk and southern England. The Royal Navy was vastly superior to anything the Germans and Italians could put to sea. The British out-produced the Germans in aircraft even prior to the German invasion of the USSR.
The success of the German armies in 1940 was because Allied command failed to respond quickly enough to the German strategy. If the Allies had been a little more aggressive they would have won. Germany did not have the resources to fight anything more than a short war. The French never even fully committed their air force to the struggle and large parts was captured or destroyed on the ground. The wild gamble in France paid off for them beyond their wildest dreams. This battle victory gave the Germans an over developed sense of self confidence.
After the fall of France, the Germans had access to the industry of Northern Italy, France, Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands, however were not able to use it to match either the Soviets or the British in war production. The success of the Royal Navy blockade was instrumental in starving Germany of vital resources and food both animal and human. French production of planes destined for Germany was minuscule. France was not capable to produce as pre-war the French imported coal from Britain for its power generation. With the successful Royal Navy blockade the main source of coal was from Germany. Germany could not increase its production to overcome the French shortfall.
The amount of food produced in continental Europe fell. The production of meat and dairy products in countries such as Denmark was dependant on imported grain and animal feed from the Americas. This was now not available. The level of food available from the dairy industry collapsed as did food production in general. In the rest of Europe food production had been based on chemical fertilizer. Huge levels of the chemicals used for fertilizer production were diverted to the manufacturing of explosives.
French workers were on subsistence rations. Electricity was widely not available in France. The country had been dependant on motorized transportation. With no fuel and road ad rail vehicles seized by the Germans, milk was poured away in farms and other produce put back into the ground unable to reach towns or cities. Most of French oil imports came from abroad. Once France fell oil products came from Romania and synthetic oil made in Germany, and so little it made little difference to the dire situation. The oil output was not enough for the needs of the German forces alone and to keep the Italian navy operational, which threatened to suspend all operations in February 1941 unless Germany provided 250,000 tons of fuel due to the dire shortage. France reverted to a horse and cart economy. The occupied countries were a drain on the German economy.
In 1940 the British destroyed the German surface fleet, destroyed most of the French fleet and disabled a major part of the Italian fleet. The Luftwaffe were beaten over Dunkirk by the RAF and in the misnomer the Battle of Britain. British forces eliminated the Italians from East Africa, decimated the Italian army in North Africa and at one point about to take all the southern Mediterranean coast. From the 1940 Dunkirk evacuation onwards, the RAF was bombing German industry from the air with raids containing over 150 bombers, using the new navigational device, Gee. A massive RAF air bombing fleet was being assembled. The RAF shot down over 700 German fighters over continental Europe in 1941. Hitler knew that he could never develop a navy to conquer Britain. Hitler's air force could not bring Britain to the peace table having been defeated by the RAF over Dunkirk and southern England.
The USSR had the natural resources that would enable Germany to out-produce Britain and America. Hitler turned to the USSR which as also a key step in his broader strategy. The invasion of the USSR was brought forward. The urgency of Hitler's aggression was also down to his awareness of the threat posed to Germany by the emergence of the USA as a global superpower. The USA has access to vast resources in the USA, a land stolen by moving west, from indigenous people and the Mexicans. Hitler took this precedence and looked east to emulate the USA, and match them economically. None of the German generals thought that the USSR could initially stand up to an invasion of over 3 million men in June 1941, however they knew they had to defeat the USSR by Christmas or they would fail as Germany had few resources and committed all reserves. This was another gamble. The USSR did stand up to the Germans and were able to marshal their industrial and military resources to last.
The British were pushing the Germans back in Operation Crusader in the North African desert in late 1941. British forces had secured Syria from the Vichy French and Iraq was secured from a German inspired revolt keeping the Germans away from the oil fields of the Middle East and ensuring the war was conducted in Europe and the strip on the southern Mediterranean coast. British and Soviet forces invaded Iran with the Soviets committing 1,000 tanks, to secure the British oil refinery at Aberdan and the railway from the Gulf to the Soviet border. The German advance was stopped dead at Moscow in December 1941, with 40% of the tanks used supplied by the British and the Soviets launching their new T-34 tank of which Germany had no answer.
With German industry being bombed by the RAF, being totally outproduced by the British & Soviets, desperately short of all resources because of the Royal Navy blockade, Germany now winning the war was a remote proposition. No more quick win gambles could be played. The gamble in France worked, the gamble in the USSR failed. The defeat at Moscow was in the same month the USA came into the war when Japan attacked the British Empire & the USA and Germany declared war on the USA. In the first year the USA entered WW2, 1942, the USSR outproduced the USA.
In 1940 the British destroyed the German surface fleet, destroyed most of the French fleet and disabled a major part of the Italian fleet. The Luftwaffe were beaten over Dunkirk by the RAF and in the misnomer the Battle of Britain. British forces eliminated the Italians from East Africa, decimated the Italian army in North Africa and at one point about to take all the southern Mediterranean coast. From the 1940 Dunkirk evacuation onwards, the RAF was bombing German industry from the air with raids containing over 150 bombers, using the new navigational device, Gee. A massive RAF air bombing fleet was being assembled. The RAF shot down over 700 German fighters over continental Europe in 1941. Hitler knew that he could never develop a navy to conquer Britain. Hitler's air force could not bring Britain to the peace table having been defeated by the RAF over Dunkirk and southern England.
It takes absolutely nothing away from the unstinting bravery and the magnificent tactical successes of the British fighting forces to acknowledge that were it not for the huge flow of Lend-Lease supplies from the United States, the very survival of Great Britain as an independent country would have been gravely in doubt.
to acknowledge that were it not for the huge flow of Lend-Lease supplies from the United States, the very survival of Great Britain as an independent country would have been gravely in doubt.
You need to look at facts not US myth during and since WW2. Lend-lease largely came in "after" the USA was in the war. Before, the USA would only provide resources by payment of gold. The British did not insist on the USSR paying in gold for the arms they provided that halted the Germans. You must have read this...........
Quote:
Germany had lost the war before it invaded the Soviet union. Its success up to 1941 had been wild gambles that paid off. The British empire alone had the capability of developing a huge military force.
And this....
Quote:
After the fall of France, the Germans had access to the industry of Northern Italy, France, Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands, however were not able to use it to match either the Soviets or the British in war production.
And this......
Quote:
With German industry being bombed by the RAF, being totally outproduced by the British & Soviets, desperately short of all resources because of the Royal Navy blockade, Germany now winning the war was a remote proposition. No more quick win gambles could be played. The gamble in France worked, the gamble in the USSR failed. The defeat at Moscow was in the same month the USA came into the war when Japan attacked the British Empire & the USA and Germany declared war on the USA. In the first year the USA entered WW2, 1942, the USSR outproduced the USA.
All quite clear.
The USA shortened the war for sure, the USA was not decisive. All facts prove that. In short, if the USA never came into WW2, Germany would have been beaten. More facts is that the USA from having soup line pre-WW2 was a very rich nation after and made a gross profit on WW2.
[quote=John-UK;39509031]You need to look at facts not US myth during and since WW2. Lend-lease largely came in "after" the USA was in the war. Before, the USA would only provide resources by payment of gold. The British did not insist on the USSR paying in gold for the arms they provided that halted the Germans. You must have read this...........
And this....
And this......
All quite clear.
The USA shortened the war for sure, the USA was not decisive. All facts prove that. In short, if the USA never came into WW2, Germany would have been beaten. More facts is that the USA from having soup line pre-WW2 was a very rich nation after and made a gross profit on WW2.
As always you have no idea what you are talking about. You need to learn the facts since you think Britian won the war all by itself. You talk of people in the western US that the US took over when they pushed west. Gee what about all the people the British empire killed to take control off ?? And the USA ended the war as the greatest and most powerful nation on earth because the people worked hard producing more supplies then any other nation by a wide margin and they built up a military of over 12 million. And just because you feel they should have given all the supplies away for free that they built I dont think any nation would give any supplies away for free. Remember it was not the USA that put Britian in the spot she was in by 1942. The USA was doing all it could to help but there are laws that even the President has to follow.
About the only thing I can agree with is that Germany may have still lost the war without the USA joining in as Russia may have defeated Germany sooner or later. But the Germans would have had alot more divisions to use against Russia since if the USA had not come in the war there would have been no D-day as Britian could not have pulled off D-day on its own. So if the USSR had beaten Germany without the USA in the war Britian could have done nothing about it since they could not have invaded Europe.
You change all the stories around and make it sound like Britian was defeating Germany before the USA entered the war which just is not true. In actual fact Britian had been kicked out of France and kicked out of Greece by the Germans. And they were fighting mostly the Itailans in Africa as there was only 2 German divisions in Africa so I sure would not say Britian was kicking Germany's butt at that time.
And even in the bombing of Germany in 41 to 43 Britian did not have a big bombing campaign going on at that time. It got much larger as did the USA's bombing campaign in 44 and peaked in 45 when the USA and Britian dropped huge amounts of bombs on Germany. Sure the British night bombing campaign got huge in the end but so did the USA's daylight bombing. You seem to forget the USA put more bombers in Britian and Europe by 1945 then Britian even had and that dont include the 21,000 combat aircraft the USA had in the Pacific ! The Allies and I mean all the Allies had 28,000 combat aircraft in Britian and Europe by 45 and nearly 15,000 of them were USA aircraft and many of the other Allied aircraft were American aircraft supplied to them by the USA.
Also Britian did not supply 40% of the tanks to Russia in the battle of Moscow. But the USA did supply Britian with 17,000 Sherman tanks in the war ! You seem to think Britian won the war on there own and forget about all the other allies. They all won it including Britian and I am not trying to say the USA bailed out Britian but I am saying the USA and Britian had alot to do with winning the war and the facts prove that about both of them. So you need to take your British pride aside and realize they were not the only ones fighting and helping win the war. Many nations had alot to do with it no matter how many years they were in the war or how many troops and supplies they put in the war. Ron
You need to look at facts not US myth during and since WW2. Lend-lease largely came in "after" the USA was in the war. Before, the USA would only provide resources by payment of gold. The British did not insist on the USSR paying in gold for the arms they provided that halted the Germans. You must have read this...........
And this....
And this......
All quite clear.
The USA shortened the war for sure, the USA was not decisive. All facts prove that. In short, if the USA never came into WW2, Germany would have been beaten. More facts is that the USA from having soup line pre-WW2 was a very rich nation after and made a gross profit on WW2.
Lend-Lease was signed into law in March 1941, which was 9 months before the U.S. formally entered the war. Before that, we were offering some of our destroyers to Britain. Also, my understanding is that the war in the European Theater did not truly turn in the Allies' favor until the end of the Stalingrad campaign, which came in early 1943.
Again, I make no claim that Britain was anything less than essential for the Allies winning the war. But to claim that they had already turned the tide before the U.S. got involved is simply not supported by the facts.
The USA has access to vast resources in the USA, a land stolen by moving west, from indigenous people and the Mexicans. Hitler took this precedence and looked east to emulate the USA, and match them economically.
What made moving west in the Americas so easy, and moving east in Europe so hard, was this: western North America was very sparsely populated by Native Americans and their Spanish-speaking conquerors, neither of whom had developed rapidly enough to challenge the Americans. Whereas eastern Europe was nearly as thoroughly developed, and almost as densely populated, as western Europe.
(And there was far less of a moral quandary in the U.S., as the Hispanic peoples had already killed off many of the native peoples before the Americans took it over. The Spanish-Mexicans were no better, and had no more natural right to the land, than the Americans.)
Anyway, it's much easier to run roughshod over deserts and prairies, with almost no one in them, than it is to run over fertile lands that had been carefully developed over thousands of years as in the Ukraine and Russia at that time.
The USA shortened the war for sure, the USA was not decisive. All facts prove that. In short, if the USA never came into WW2, Germany would have been beaten. More facts is that the USA from having soup line pre-WW2 was a very rich nation after and made a gross profit on WW2.
Actually WW2 began and ended for the USA with fighting Japan, not Germany. Japan was arguably the stronger and larger enemy, and if the USA was not fighting Japan then the Japanese could have invaded Russia from the other side at the same time as the Germans. And then, Russia (and the rest of Europe) would not have stood a chance.
You can thank the USA for keeping Japan out of Russia, and you can therefore more or less thank the USA (and the Soviet Union, I guess) for contributing the lion's share of winning WW2 even before the Americans liberated France, Belgium, and western Germany where the UK had been unable to on their own.
As always you have no idea what you are talking about.
Before you come out with inane statements like that based on myth you had better know what you are taking about and know some facts to boot. Britain did not win the war by itself that is clear, but clearly could have defeated the Germans by itself. Read and understand what I wrote. It is rather easier that way.
The fact is the British and Soviets did most of the fighting. Germany was defeated before the USA came in, in the sense that they could not win. I never made it up. Check it out.
Read what I wrote and then check it out. The Americans never saved anyone except themselves.
Lend-Lease was signed into law in March 1941, which was 9 months before the U.S. formally entered the war. Before that, we were offering some of our destroyers to Britain.
Lend-lease took a while to get into motion. It never started to make an effect in the USSR until 1943.
Your understand is incorrect. The Germans were stopped in the west by the British. They were stopped in east at Moscow. They were not winning after that. By the time the US got boots on the ground in late 1942, to blood them really as they were green, Stalingrad had been won and so was El Alamein. After these two battle the Germans were on the run backwards.
What facts are you supported by?
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