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"Barbaric technology" here means things made for savage purposes of conquest, oppression and exploitation. There are examples of empires built on such technologies: the Mongol empire first invented "composite bows" (see pic below) and had the best bred horses; those along with their barbaric will to rape women of the world, they built the largest and longest lasting empire in the world.
Of course, all technologies obsolete and civilization prevails. The law of history applies. Mongol empire was overthrown by the Chinese.
Such empire had its rise-and-fall.
Any other such examples? Nuclear war-heads worshipers?
"Barbaric technology" here means things made for savage purposes of conquest, oppression and exploitation. There are examples of empires built on such technologies: the Mongol empire first invented "composite bows" (see pic below) and had the best bred horses; those along with their barbaric will to rape women of the world, they built the largest and longest lasting empire in the world.
Of course, all technologies obsolete and civilization prevails. The law of history applies. Mongol empire was overthrown by the Chinese.
Such empire had its rise-and-fall.
Any other such examples? Nuclear war-heads worshipers?
The origin of the composite bow is unknown. They may have been invented by the ancestors of the Turko-Mongolian people, but they were in use millennia before the "Mongols" proper existed as a tribe. It is also possible that it was invented by Indo-Aryan tribes such as the Saka, or a civilization such as Egypt.
Countries who have used barbaric technology for conquest and exploitation?
Hmmm...let me see now. Well....how about the United States of America?
Oh yes: Do not ever forget who the only country to ever unleash a nuclear weapon on another peoples is. For it is us.
And we did it twice.
On innocent civilians.
Needlessly...since Japan was already close to surrendering.
Fat Man and Little Boy were merely "hands off" messages to the Soviets, who was on their way over their after the sacking Berlin and defeating Germany.
Our fire-bombing of Dresden was also a needless atrocity. (how many know we killed just as many there as with Hiroshima. Though the given numbers are skewed in most history books.)
My Lord--Dresden was a historical arts city, and, once again, full of innocents. It too was another "hands-off" warning, and could indeed be construed as the "First Shot Fired of the Cold War."
(In fact, I once wrote a college history essay entitled just that)
So..it is my opinion that since both of these atrocities, nee, Holocausts, were inflicted for ulterior motives, I blieve that equates to "exploitation."
Thus, I think it can be argued that an excellent case can be made for the USA being the real Evil Empire.
Countries who have used barbaric technology for conquest and exploitation?
Hmmm...let me see now. Well....how about the United States of America?
Oh yes: Do not ever forget who the only country to ever unleash a nuclear weapon on another peoples is. For it is us.
And we did it twice.
On innocent civilians.
Needlessly...since Japan was already close to surrendering.
Fat Man and Little Boy were merely "hands off" messages to the Soviets, who was on their way over their after the sacking Berlin and defeating Germany.
Our fire-bombing of Dresden was also a needless atrocity. (how many know we killed just as many there as with Hiroshima. Though the given numbers are skewed in most history books.)
My Lord--Dresden was a historical arts city, and, once again, full of innocents. It too was another "hands-off" warning, and could indeed be construed as the "First Shot Fired of the Cold War."
(In fact, I once wrote a college history essay entitled just that)
So..it is my opinion that since both of these atrocities, nee, Holocausts, were inflicted for ulterior motives, I blieve that equates to "exploitation."
Thus, I think it can be argued that an excellent case can be made for the USA being the real Evil Empire.
No, Japan was NOT "close to surrendering". Read "Retribution" by Max Hastings or "Eagle Against the Sun" by Ronald Spector for more details. (Also Richard Frank's book, whose title I've forgotten). AFTER the dropping of the two atomic bombs, the Japanese inner cabinet was still split three to three on whether to throw in the towel. It was only the emperor's intervention (being influenced by the atomic bombs) which turned the tide within the Japanese government.
As far as the deterrent effect on the Soviet Union goes, it may have been part of the U.S. thinking at the time, but to call it the "real" reason for the atomic bombings is beyond ludicrous. It was a secondary or tertiary reason.
No, Japan was NOT "close to surrendering". Read "Retribution" by Max Hastings or "Eagle Against the Sun" by Ronald Spector for more details. (Also Richard Frank's book, whose title I've forgotten). AFTER the dropping of the two atomic bombs, the Japanese inner cabinet was still split three to three on whether to throw in the towel. It was only the emperor's intervention (being influenced by the atomic bombs) which turned the tide within the Japanese government.
As far as the deterrent effect on the Soviet Union goes, it may have been part of the U.S. thinking at the time, but to call it the "real" reason for the atomic bombings is beyond ludicrous. It was a secondary or tertiary reason.
This is exactly right. It was estimated that a million men would be needed to secure Japan and causalities were expected to be as high as 50%. One of those serving in the Pacific theater is was my grandfather, so when someone comes out crying about the poor Japanese, I am always sure to remind them that the alternative would have been a massacre of Americans the scope of which would have altered history.
You can always see the disingenuousness- until recently the Japanese did not even acknowledge the rape of Nanking, and yet from the political left you never hear the concern over that or the Holocaust, but for the counter-atrocity. Some situation with terrorism today...blame the victim for fighting fire with fire. Sorry, that is the really real world, and it is always going to be.
As for the "real" reason being a message to the Soviets- the atomic bomb was explicitly made to drop on Germany, and inconveniently, they surrendered before it was possible. So much for that theory.
"Barbaric technology" sounds like someone is trying to fit a weapon system into a preset value system of what is and is not barbaric. I think it is a poor use of technology in history and once again imparting modern values into the past which is also poor historical method.
Countries who have used barbaric technology for conquest and exploitation?
Hmmm...let me see now. Well....how about the United States of America?
Oh yes: Do not ever forget who the only country to ever unleash a nuclear weapon on another peoples is. For it is us.
And we did it twice.
On innocent civilians.
Needlessly...since Japan was already close to surrendering.
Fat Man and Little Boy were merely "hands off" messages to the Soviets, who was on their way over their after the sacking Berlin and defeating Germany.
Our fire-bombing of Dresden was also a needless atrocity. (how many know we killed just as many there as with Hiroshima. Though the given numbers are skewed in most history books.)
My Lord--Dresden was a historical arts city, and, once again, full of innocents. It too was another "hands-off" warning, and could indeed be construed as the "First Shot Fired of the Cold War."
(In fact, I once wrote a college history essay entitled just that)
So..it is my opinion that since both of these atrocities, nee, Holocausts, were inflicted for ulterior motives, I blieve that equates to "exploitation."
Thus, I think it can be argued that an excellent case can be made for the USA being the real Evil Empire.
Dresden wouldn't have happened if Hitler didn't invade Poland - the Atomic Bombs wouldn't have happened if Japan didn't invade Singapore or bomb Pearl Harbour, the blame for these atrocities lie elsewhere not with the US or its Allies, its quite simple really. Oh and the USA isn't an 'Empire' anyway.
Countries who have used barbaric technology for conquest and exploitation?
Hmmm...let me see now. Well....how about the United States of America?
Oh good Lord! - can you guys give it a rest? This is not the topic. Rant away in your P&C forum, not here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by txjl123
"Barbaric technology" here means things made for savage purposes of conquest, oppression and exploitation. There are examples of empires built on such technologies: the Mongol empire first invented "composite bows" (see pic below) and had the best bred horses; those along with their barbaric will to rape women of the world, they built the largest and longest lasting empire in the world.
OP - 'Savage conquest' is a subjective term, and history shows us that conquest is achieved as much by political means (the right treaties, the right marriages) as well as military means. Also don't dismiss weapons technology, but advancements in the arts of war - strategy and tactics. Some examples:
Ancient Egypt - In the later period their military was successful not only due to technology - iron weapons were much stronger then the bronze edged weapons of it's competitors, Chariots were used (although not really new, as evidence suggest that technology migrated over from the Asian Steppes). But also for it's relatively advanced military organization and it's use of combined arms - swift horse drawn chariots using ranged weapons to "soften up" the enemy and then using ground troops.
Ancient Greece - Spears were nothing new, but then came the proper application - The Phalanx! Impenetrable to both horse and ground troops, protected from ranged weapons by full shields. That is, until they found the weakness - lack of manuevarability.
Ancient Rome - There was some new technology - ballistas. But again much of the magic was strategy and organization. Discpilined, well-trained armies made all the difference...and logistics - Roman's engineered roads for it's forces to travel quickly from one hot spot to another.
This is exactly right. It was estimated that a million men would be needed to secure Japan and causalities were expected to be as high as 50%. One of those serving in the Pacific theater is was my grandfather, so when someone comes out crying about the poor Japanese, I am always sure to remind them that the alternative would have been a massacre of Americans the scope of which would have altered history.
You can always see the disingenuousness- until recently the Japanese did not even acknowledge the rape of Nanking, and yet from the political left you never hear the concern over that or the Holocaust, but for the counter-atrocity. Some situation with terrorism today...blame the victim for fighting fire with fire. Sorry, that is the really real world, and it is always going to be.
As for the "real" reason being a message to the Soviets- the atomic bomb was explicitly made to drop on Germany, and inconveniently, they surrendered before it was possible. So much for that theory.
Well with the way Americans talk about Chinese people, I am sure the vast majority would support the Japanese if another Nanking Massacre occurred. Even in the past, I doubt the vast majority of Americans cared (more like support the massacre) about Chinese people being massacred since the vast majority of Americans had strong negative views of non-white people so let's not pretend that the Americans in the past actually cared about that. The death threats that Seymour Hersh got after revealing the My Lai Massacre is telling IMO. A lot of Americans also thought the Vietnamese deserved that and that was in a far more enlightened time than the 1930s-1940s.
Countries who have used barbaric technology for conquest and exploitation?
Hmmm...let me see now. Well....how about the United States of America?
Oh yes: Do not ever forget who the only country to ever unleash a nuclear weapon on another peoples is. For it is us.
And we did it twice.
On innocent civilians.
Needlessly...since Japan was already close to surrendering.
Fat Man and Little Boy were merely "hands off" messages to the Soviets, who was on their way over their after the sacking Berlin and defeating Germany.
Our fire-bombing of Dresden was also a needless atrocity. (how many know we killed just as many there as with Hiroshima. Though the given numbers are skewed in most history books.)
My Lord--Dresden was a historical arts city, and, once again, full of innocents. It too was another "hands-off" warning, and could indeed be construed as the "First Shot Fired of the Cold War."
(In fact, I once wrote a college history essay entitled just that)
So..it is my opinion that since both of these atrocities, nee, Holocausts, were inflicted for ulterior motives, I blieve that equates to "exploitation."
Thus, I think it can be argued that an excellent case can be made for the USA being the real Evil Empire.
These rants always make me chuckle. Hitler gets 11.5 MILLION whacked in some special camps and you think we are the bad guys? Did it ever occur to you how many lives we SAVED by ending the war quickly with those bombs? Both sides that is. The guesstimates were we would lose 1,000,000 men taking Japan.....what to do do what to do...drop bombs, kill 85,000 or lose 1,000,000 taking the place not to mention the millions of Japanese ciciliqns and soldiers lost....hmmmmmm
Dresden was exaggerated, look it up. Next time don't shoot V1's or V2's Indiscriminately and you too may live a safe civilian life. Collateral damage is usually a part of war.
How about Pol Pot? He was a pretty bad guy, right? He killed 2,000,000 of his own Cambodians in a little ove 2-3 years? How about Stalin, he got 20,000,000 clipped. Mussolini, Alexander the great and on and on and on. You must be fresh off the campuses of the US as you are clueless about the bigger atrocities. Do some research, put the Bill Ayers literature down and step away from the pipe homie. WWII took 55,000,000 lives globally NOT counting wounded or maimed. And we are the bad guys?
You tool, had we not been the arsenal of democracy you and I would be speaking German right about now. You can thank those "evil" veterans who fought for your ignorance. Better yet, thank any of the 283,000 Americans that died for it. Or, did they deserve that?
We have yet to begin to slaughter millions but, we are willing to learn. Christ, we are the only ones that ever show restraint. Just ask the Jordanians. They got it right. Also, don't forget the Hutu's of Rwanda. They murdered nearly 800,000 Tustsis, mostly with Machetes, in 90 days flat. And you are biotching about two small nukes?
Dead is dead. Matters not how you were wiped off the planet. The genocide in Rwanda is the fastest on record. one every 6 seconds for 90 days straight, 24 hours a day.
Now, go back to your Che Guevara t-shirt and protest something else meaningless.
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